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Dumbed down probing.
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Herr Esiq
Viziam
#81 - 2013-05-10 07:35:58 UTC
New players now have to compete against lots of Tengu's with deep scanner probes cherrypicking their ideal sites with a DSP guide.

You tell me how that is/was a good experience and takes a lot of skill..
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2013-05-10 07:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Domanique Altares wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I mean, let's go through the process here of scanning down an anomaly with 8 probes, okay?
Launch probe, launch probe, launch probe, launch probe, launch probe, launch probe, launch probe, launch probe, drag all probes to one spot, pull probe 2 out into formation, pull probe 3 out into formation, pull probe 4 out into formation, pull probe 5 out into formation, pull probe 6 out into formation, pull probe 7 out into formation, pull probe 8 out into formation, scan, move probe formation, reduce scan range, pull probes 2-8 inward, move probe formation, scan, etc.


Wow, so you kind of understand how to do it. This is good.

Now, how about you take us through the process of banding your results with a DSP to decide what you want to scan and what you don't?

Wait, you can't, because there's no DSP.

Since we can't do that, how about you take us through the process of launching one DSP and keeping it idle to check the whole system for new spawns, while you use the other seven probes to scan?

Wait, you can't, since there's no DSP, and no 8th probe.

Well, then lastly, perhaps you'd like to take us through the 'tedious' yet time-saving process of using two four-probe constellations to scan down more than one signature at a time?

Wait, you can't. Because yet again, there's no 8th probe anymore.

You also can't do these these because it's obvious that you don't know a damn thing about them.

Why do you have to do any of this DSP stuff when the discovery scanner does it for you?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-05-10 07:42:18 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:

Now, how about you take us through the process of banding your results with a DSP to decide what you want to scan and what you don't?


I look at the new Sensor Overlay and use the signature strength from there. You are a experienced player, you will notice the patterns.

Quote:

Since we can't do that, how about you take us through the process of launching one DSP and keeping it idle to check the whole system for new spawns, while you use the other seven probes to scan?


Same answer, except that I just look for new sigs on the Sensor Overlay. Now, granted, this requires more ~effort~ now to spin the camera view around and note new sigs, but CCP could always integrate the overlay results in a nice little list for the lazy ones.

Quote:

Well, then lastly, perhaps you'd like to take us through the 'tedious' yet time-saving process of using two four-probe constellations to scan down more than one signature at a time?


Now, that is a valid complaint. CCP should readd the option to launch/use 8 probes.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#84 - 2013-05-10 07:53:08 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Why do you have to do any of this DSP stuff when the discovery scanner does it for you?


Because it doesn't. From playing with it all afternoon, it doesn't band things in any discernable fashion. Therefore you can't 'cherry pick' among the sites that you don't want. (Especially considering that CCP has admitted their desire to take the list of signatures out of the scan window, forcing you to have to look all over with the camera just to see what the hell you're doing.)

The Discovery scanner, if it makes it to implementation without the list, doesn't provide a good 'heads up' to newly spawned entities in space; if you don't happen to be facing it when it pops up during a cycle, you're likely to miss it.

The Discovery scanner currently requires that you have the irritating 'radar' sweep animation running full-time in order to retain anything on the screen.

The Discovery scanner does not scan down anything for you, much less facilitate being able to scan down two signatures at one time. (IE, it does't make up for losing the 8th probe.)

Its function is similar to a DSP, but ultimately not the same, not as useful, and in many cases quite a bit more limiting.

If CCP has their way, we'll be using pencil and paper or temporary bookmark hell to keep track of what we've scanned down and what we haven't in WH systems. That's not exactly cutting edge or easy.

Frankly, the whole thing smacks of a rush job by people who do not spend any time actively scanning anything that's not on an internal test server. I think they've (rightly) spent a ton of time prepping their exploration mini games, blingtastic Discovery scanner overlay, and cute radial menu system, and the probe revamp is going to be the afterthought of this release.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#85 - 2013-05-10 08:21:12 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
New players now have to compete against lots of Tengu's with deep scanner probes cherrypicking their ideal sites with a DSP guide.

You tell me how that is/was a good experience and takes a lot of skill..


Tell us how the new system changes anything? Tengus are still allowed, but the probing doesn't require any skill anymore. This means even more people piling into hisec sites.

All these changes is just CCP ruining exploration, wormholes and scanning in a single sweep. They could have revamped the d-scanner interface, but no.

.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-05-10 08:44:38 UTC
Roime wrote:
[
Tell us how the new system changes anything? Tengus are still allowed, but the probing doesn't require any skill anymore. This means even more people piling into hisec sites.


The "skills" needed now are the ability to read a website and compare numbers and willingness to sit through the boring, repetitive task of positioning probes. Sure, with the changes, more people will go into the exploration profession but that isn't a bad thing. Low- and Nullsec exploration will see increased numbers, which means more targets for pvp.

Quote:

All these changes is just CCP ruining exploration, wormholes and scanning in a single sweep. They could have revamped the d-scanner interface, but no.


This is eve, a game where you have to adapt frequently. If you can't adapt to these changes: Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#87 - 2013-05-10 08:56:09 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

The "skills" needed now are the ability to read a website and compare numbers and willingness to sit through the boring, repetitive task of positioning probes. Sure, with the changes, more people will go into the exploration profession but that isn't a bad thing. Low- and Nullsec exploration will see increased numbers, which means more targets for pvp.


That's simply false. Good scanners are highly valued in every wormhole corporation, because they have developed excellent player skills and trained high character skills, enjoy what they do and are always doing it. The difference between skilled scanners and the plebs is huge.

Odyssey removes all their training advantages (skill changes and modules, forced 7 probes).

More people piling onto the rare sites is not a good thing, it means more scanning for less results, and less profit for loot.

Quote:

This is eve, a game where you have to adapt frequently. If you can't adapt to these changes: Don't let the door hit you on your way out.


There is no adapting to this change, your actions won't make exploration or scouting fun, interesting or lucrative.

.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-05-10 09:06:20 UTC
Roime wrote:

That's simply false. Good scanners are highly valued in every wormhole corporation, because they have developed excellent player skills and trained high character skills, enjoy what they do and are always doing it. The difference between skilled scanners and the plebs is huge.

Odyssey removes all their training advantages (skill changes and modules, forced 7 probes).


I believe the module changes aren't quite finished (T2 requiring same skill as T1) and I agree on the 7 probes thing. But probing currently is really not hard and the experience people get will still help them against a complete newbie prober. If you ask around in rookie chat/NPC starter corp chat what puts most people off probing is the tediousness of having to arrange probes, not the difficulty in scanning. See the outburst on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWtlr-MqXEc at the 7:32 mark? That's what I'm talking about.

Quote:

More people piling onto the rare sites is not a good thing, it means more scanning for less results, and less profit for loot.


Get a friend who kills your competition in the site? If you are in highsec: Wardec known explorers? Or gank them? Eve gives you so many ingame options to deal with that "problem".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#89 - 2013-05-10 10:00:52 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

I believe the module changes aren't quite finished (T2 requiring same skill as T1) and I agree on the 7 probes thing. But probing currently is really not hard and the experience people get will still help them against a complete newbie prober. If you ask around in rookie chat/NPC starter corp chat what puts most people off probing is the tediousness of having to arrange probes, not the difficulty in scanning. See the outburst on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWtlr-MqXEc at the 7:32 mark? That's what I'm talking about.


I know many players who think that scanning is hard. I don't find arranging probes tedious in any way.


Quote:

Get a friend who kills your competition in the site? If you are in highsec: Wardec known explorers? Or gank them? Eve gives you so many ingame options to deal with that "problem".


I don't explore in hisec, new players do. None of those options are available for them. Their entry-level 4/10s are still going to be blitzed by older players, of which there will be even more. They will find less sites. They can't sell grav sigs to their noobcorp mates. Loot value will drop. All these lead into disappointed new players, while ruining the other aspects of scanning for older players.

.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#90 - 2013-05-10 10:18:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Why do you have to do any of this DSP stuff when the discovery scanner does it for you?


Because rubber necking in order to find the sigs is fun right? Not to mention it seems kind of odd that the Discovery Scanner shows hits in space, when 99.9% of probing is done in solar system view.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-05-10 10:18:46 UTC
Roime wrote:

I know many players who think that scanning is hard. I don't find arranging probes tedious in any way.


F1, F1 -> move probe up, F1 -> move probe down, F1 -> move probe left, F1 -> move probe right, F1 -> move probe top, F1 -> move probe bottom. That's pretty much textbook definition of tedious.


Quote:

I don't explore in hisec, new players do. None of those options are available for them. Their entry-level 4/10s are still going to be blitzed by older players, of which there will be even more. They will find less sites. They can't sell grav sigs to their noobcorp mates. Loot value will drop. All these lead into disappointed new players, while ruining the other aspects of scanning for older players.


Last I checked even 1 day old players can declare war, join a player corp or hire mercenaries. Eve is not game that throws purples at you for being able to enter your password without breaking fingers. And I really believe that this should not change.
Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-05-10 10:23:12 UTC
ITT: People complain about something being too easy now that should never have had to be hard.

The difficulty in probing shouldn't be the act of finding a site, it should be the act of staying in one piece when you find a site worth going to.

Kill it with Fire!

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#93 - 2013-05-10 10:23:53 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Roime wrote:

I know many players who think that scanning is hard. I don't find arranging probes tedious in any way.


F1, F1 -> move probe up, F1 -> move probe down, F1 -> move probe left, F1 -> move probe right, F1 -> move probe top, F1 -> move probe bottom. That's pretty much textbook definition of tedious.


Quote:

I don't explore in hisec, new players do. None of those options are available for them. Their entry-level 4/10s are still going to be blitzed by older players, of which there will be even more. They will find less sites. They can't sell grav sigs to their noobcorp mates. Loot value will drop. All these lead into disappointed new players, while ruining the other aspects of scanning for older players.


Last I checked even 1 day old players can declare war, join a player corp or hire mercenaries. Eve is not game that throws purples at you for being able to enter your password without breaking fingers. And I really believe that this should not change.


Dropping probes is far less tedious than making 20 jumps in hisec, or running a site.

Are you seriously suggesting that a 1-day old player will have more success in exploration if he starts wardeccing the older players blitzing sites?

If you think that EVE shouldn't cater to anyone able to log in, why do you support scanning made easier?

.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-05-10 10:57:27 UTC
Roime wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that a 1-day old player will have more success in exploration if he starts wardeccing the older players blitzing sites?


If he wants to stop those players, yes, of course. Then again, a really new player will focus on the 1/10 and 2/10 sites and leave the "harder" ones until he has the skills to fly a cruiser well. But even if he does not care about stopping his competition: More players running sites => more modules on market => less profit => less high skill players doing the sites (when they can earn more in missions/incursions) => less competition.

Quote:
If you think that EVE shouldn't cater to anyone able to log in, why do you support scanning made easier?


It should of course lower the entry barrier to professions, but like I said above, that will mean that the professions are less valuable. The system balances itself, there is no need to artificially keep the number of explorers down just so that risk-averse players can chain-run their 4/10s.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-05-10 11:11:35 UTC
This should be a nice change
The whole launch, move, launch, move etc was what put me of scanning in the first place.

The auto formation will be a welcome addition as well, having a low special awareness meant scanning was extremely frustrating for me.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#96 - 2013-05-10 11:12:03 UTC
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
i kind of liked it being tedious. it helped ensure that not everyone in the game would be out there probing because they felt it was boring or they were impatient on that level. which translated into less competition for sites.


You could just shoot your competition, you know?


i could. in low and below. but say i'm in highsec looking for low sec ore grav sites (which just any scrub will be able to find before long as well) or combat sites or w/e...it seems bad for business to trade a strategic cruiser to concord for an imicus or magnate killmail lol


Two words

Mission Gnosis.
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#97 - 2013-05-10 14:06:35 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kitanga wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I haven't tested it personally, but from what you describe it seems they've listened to the complaints and implemented appropriate improvements. It seems very similar to the old system except without all the pointless tedium. The only real change seem to be the removal of deep space probes, but the function seems to be included in the scanner, so no real loss there either.



wait... what?? deep space probes are removed from the game? i sure hope the replacement provides all the intel that a deep space probe provided.

DSP were pretty much exclusively used to find the relative signal strengths of cosmic sigs, right?
The discovery scanner gives you this information. The only problem is that it's not incorporated into an easily accessible list, it's now spread out in separate points in space so you have to pan your camera around to find all of them.




I just got on Singularity. what they have done is a disaster. this overlay is not a adequate replacement for Deep Space Probes. one thing everyone seems to forget (have not heard it mentioned) is that DSP would show you Ship Signatures, and POS, Drones, everything. i could drop one probe (at 265au) in a WH and no matter how big the WH system is, i can see if there are any uncloaked ships or any POS in one 256AU probe. no more. this is not good. this is game breaking for me.

all they needed to do was allow probes to be launched in a set pattern of your choosing (and not even all launched in one button click), and they went ahead and aborted the whole probing system instead.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-05-10 14:10:10 UTC
Does NOBODY else have the same problem that I mentioned on page one?

This is probably my number one reason I don't enjoy probing anymore, and why I'm very happy to see these changes.

The Problem:

When sizing down a probe formation, after moving, a sizing attempt on single or multiple probes will usually (sometimes it just won't!) cause the size of the rest of the probes to balloon randomly, to a place slightly between normal 'selectable' ranges. In order to return the probes to their proper size, one has to quickly re-size all the probes, then attempt the adjustment that caused the problem again. This bug can repeat any time you resize a probe(s) after moving the formation, even multiple times in an attempt on a single signature.

My ability to click+drag three times quickly in a workaround for this bug hardly constitutes skill. Nor do most of the tedious actions associated with probing. My main beef is with the auto-return, that removes a valid harassment/pvp/disruption/fleet command tactic.

Please make auto-return a checkbox option!

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2013-05-10 14:13:39 UTC
Kitanga wrote:
I just got on Singularity. what they have done is a disaster. this overlay is not a adequate replacement for Deep Space Probes. one thing everyone seems to forget (have not heard it mentioned) is that DSP would show you Ship Signatures, and POS, Drones, everything. i could drop one probe (at 265au) in a WH and no matter how big the WH system is, i can see if there are any uncloaked ships or any POS in one 256AU probe. no more. this is not good. this is game breaking for me.

Go ahead and leave feedback in the appropriate thread then.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#100 - 2013-05-10 14:21:09 UTC
NARDAC wrote:


It used to take some skill to ........


I have been away for a good while. It seems like the arguments against change is are still the same lol