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Research costs with new fuel prices

First post
Author
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-05-09 08:46:30 UTC
As a rough guide would it be safe to assume that a doubling of POS running costs translates to a doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices, or will the effect be more subtle than that?
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Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#2 - 2013-05-09 09:08:31 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices

We can but hope.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2013-05-09 10:57:43 UTC
I'd say no. Though I'd /like/ to say yes.

The fuel cost isn't the only cost involved when it comes to researching things in a POS. It's the only direct cost (assuming you treat the cost of buying the pos as cap expenditure), but you still have the time that the characters research slot is taken up.

While I've not spent a lot of time looking at the research market, I suspect that cost is treated higher. And it's not going to change.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Sabre Rolf
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-05-09 13:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabre Rolf
Rellik B00n wrote:
As a rough guide would it be safe to assume that a doubling of POS running costs translates to a doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices, or will the effect be more subtle than that?


did you really just say "doubling"?

you seem to forget, that....

Arrowyou can research more than one BPO at the same time in a POS at same pos costs
ArrowPOS'es arent the only instruments to research/copy BPO´s (stations)
Arrowbiggest portion of BPO value comes by their NPC cost, not by their research level
Arrowmany POSes are placed for other purposes than reasearching but still have research jobs running (those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins)
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#5 - 2013-05-09 17:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Illest Insurrectionist
Sabre Rolf wrote:
Rellik B00n wrote:
As a rough guide would it be safe to assume that a doubling of POS running costs translates to a doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices, or will the effect be more subtle than that?


did you really just say "doubling"?

you seem to forget, that....

Arrowyou can research more than one BPO at the same time in a POS at same pos costs
ArrowPOS'es arent the only instruments to research/copy BPO´s (stations)
Arrowbiggest portion of BPO value comes by their NPC cost, not by their research level
Arrowmany POSes are placed for other purposes than reasearching but still have research jobs running (those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins)


Lets start at the top of the list i guess.

If are you are researching 20 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel. If you are researching 203003838 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel.

They amount of research output isn't increase with fuel costs. If you are running twelve labs today and fuel doubles then those twelve labs running costs just doubled.


Stations have a static output. There won't be more copying or research slots after the patch.


The biggest portion of the BPO profit comes from the research, not buying it at NPC cost. If it costs twice as much to reach the desirable level then either the profit or the cost must take a hit.


If you want to have any sort of safety you need to have a station/office in system with the POS. The people putting up POSes in wormholes don't have that advantage. The people putting up POSes for moon materials likely don't have that advantage.

You assert that "those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins." I would like to see some proof of this. The people setting up moon goo POSes certainly care about profit. They arn't collecting moon goo because it improves their health.


TLDR: If fuel doubles, research costs nearly double.
Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#6 - 2013-05-09 18:22:18 UTC
For many large scale producers, including myself, fuel is a minor cost compared to PLEX.
Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#7 - 2013-05-09 18:32:19 UTC
Sabre Rolf wrote:
those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins

I am not sure that people who research as a side-line are a major factor in this because of the low volume they generate.

When I look at the BP market I see the same few names setting the prices across all the product lines and none of those are going to be casual producers.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#8 - 2013-05-09 19:40:06 UTC
This should really not be the main topic of discussion..

What should be is when will ccp fix the now even greater problem with npc research slots and their prices..

You can get 1 isk / hour ME research slots from npc.. How can p2p POS running operations ever compete with that?

Sure its a motivator to lure people into low sec to use these, but the difference is way to great, and the queue mechanics instead of a dynamic price development is a HUGE flaw to game mechanics..

It should ALWAYS be more valid to use a POS, over an npc service.

My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk..

The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job. It should only be visible in the list if the issuer have good standing towards the client, if not it shows as anonymous.

This would be a suggestion on how to fix and add better slot functions. Some further tweaking and features would be needed.

The point is npc slots is a 10 year old problem that have never been properly fixed.

Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#9 - 2013-05-09 20:00:28 UTC
"How can p2p POS running operations ever compete with that?"

A POS operator can do that same research in significantly less time.

A POS operator doesn't have to travel to low sec/high sec islands.

Mynnna has suggested increasing manufacturing fees. I'd assume as an extension to that research costs might be looked at too. Yes, I know Mynnna isn't ccp and Mynnna isn't god.


"It should ALWAYS be more valid to use a POS, over an npc service."

Absolutes arn't always fun gaming. Being able to go along albeit at a slower pace during war decs or extended time away from the game isn't horrible.


"player owned POS slot we see in all stations."

Expanding the roles of POSes is something i think a lot of folks would like to see.
Sabre Rolf
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-05-09 20:20:54 UTC
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:

Lets start at the top of the list i guess.
If are you are researching 20 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel. If you are researching 203003838 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel.
They amount of research output isn't increase with fuel costs. If you are running twelve labs today and fuel doubles then those twelve labs running costs just doubled.

yea, I didnt say anything else. But this still doesnt mean you can sell your BPC`s or BPO`s for the doubled price. supply and demand is what matters , buildcost marks just an absolute limit
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:

Stations have a static output. There won't be more copying or research slots after the patch.

you nailed it, static source of researched BPOs/copys that does NOT care about fuel cost at all.
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:

The biggest portion of the BPO profit comes from the research, not buying it at NPC cost. If it costs twice as much to reach the desirable level then either the profit or the cost must take a hit.

I said the BPO value(price), not profit. at least for BPO´s. but a Raven BPO won´t be worth 3,2 bils just because it now costs 20 mil more to research it.
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:

You assert that "those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins." I would like to see some proof of this. The people setting up moon goo POSes certainly care about profit.

mate, we arent talking about any proof here, as you certainly cant proof that moon harvesters care about blueprint profits...its like asking for a proof for a weather forecast
"care about profit" does not mean they gona make a fuzz about some side-profit. They can, sure; but they just don`t have to.
Blueprint Seller wrote:

I am not sure that people who research as a side-line are a major factor in this because of the low volume they generate.
I dont think they are the major factor,no; but they are a factor. Maybe you're also underestimating a bit the number of ppl having the BPO researching running as side line. high sec builders, inventers, garage-POSes, moon harversters etc... it´s not nothing.

Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#11 - 2013-05-09 21:17:40 UTC
Invention is ALLLOOOT faster with POS then NPC, pos is far better if you set it up correctly, AKA specialize.
Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#12 - 2013-05-09 22:08:58 UTC
Sabre Rolf wrote:
Maybe you're also underestimating a bit the number of ppl having the BPO researching running as side line. high sec builders, inventers, garage-POSes, moon harversters etc... it´s not nothing.

Those people generally don't sell many blueprints though, so they have a very small impact on market price compared to someone who runs a large copy farm. You can have hundreds of people occasionally dropping the odd BP on the market and it doesn't amount to much on a daily basis. The side-liners make their difference to the market by consuming their own product, rather than buying it in. Compare that to a producer that keeps up a constant market presence with many hundreds of simulatenous BPs on conctracts and on the forums.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#13 - 2013-05-09 22:09:24 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Invention is ALLLOOOT faster with POS then NPC, pos is far better if you set it up correctly, AKA specialize.


How is that relevant if you speed things up to 2x speed you still have to compete with prices in cost per hour..

With a cost of 1 isk / hour in some low sec you can speed things up by a factor 500 it still wont change the competition issue..

Low sec npc POS as I mentioned is a valid strategy from a risk reward persective, but it should never be better than say a player run POS in low sec.

As things are the npc option is way too safe, and way too cheap.. So its only a matter of patience that is the benefit to POS and p2p operations..

As stated the npc slot problem is 10 years old and it needs a huge nerf bat as soon as possible..

Personally I relate to the carebears and the fact that they dont want the hassle and risk of running a POS, but they should not be wining on that strategy..

npc slot prices should always be at least 25-100% above what players run at least, and ideally it should be removed entirely and give us a public renting feature in some way.. There is still way to many npc functions that serve hardly any purpose except bending the game in a bad direction. Sinks and faucets are fine, bu slots dont sink isk or materials in any way useful to the game economy, so leaving this as is would be a mistake.. Especially now that decryptors and similar will make things even higher risk, and strain logistics even more..

Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-05-09 22:52:58 UTC
so I got the gist of the arguments here but it doesn't change the fact that higher fuel costs will almost certainly have an impact on researched print costs.

What I'm finding it difficult to get a handle on is how much of an impact.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#15 - 2013-05-09 23:35:52 UTC
Public research costs need to go up. I mean, Eve needs isk sinks anyway...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#16 - 2013-05-09 23:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
In the end it'll all be decided by demand and supply and personal choices. A well managed, well chosen POS allows for flexibility at pricing, expecially when producing a revenue of 30-40M per lab slot. So in the end it comes down to simple points like: "today people buy my Retriever BPC for 10M, let's see how price will settle later". It's possible that many factors would cap (or not) price at 10M no matter the POS maintenace costs.

It's also possible to meet hard-rock minded people who will impose their own, thought out of the blues price.

I.e. one of my 3 competitors (2 of which, along with me, sort of command the highly researched BPCs for a number of BPCs markets) ALWAYS sells his BPCs for 3.5M. Every other BPC could sell at 5M including ME 25 ones, but he'll dump his ME 300 BPCs at 3.5M anyway, every day, without any variation or adaptation.
I, on the other side, test the waters and one week I might sell a ME 300 BPC for 3.2M and the next week for 7M because of a shift in demand.
Come the patch, that 3.5M guy will start earning less than today, while I'll raise my prices to keep up with the increased costs.
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#17 - 2013-05-10 05:01:47 UTC
"With a cost of 1 isk / hour in some low sec you can speed things up by a factor 500 it still wont change the competition issue"

Obelisk BPC prices ~120 mil. Time taken in a station ~44 days. Time in a POS ~28.

That works out to ~4.2mil isk per day made in a POS. ~2.7mil isk per day in a station.

If you were making 18 copies in a pos that is 2.26 billion a month in a POS.

If you were making 18 copies in a station that is 1.458 billion a month in a station.

Unless fuel costs exceed 810 mil/month in this example you'll make more isk/hr using a POS. You also have greater flexibility and less travel time.

That is copying slots alone.

You can get that on a medium without issue. You can get twice that number of copying on a large.

That is how a POS beats a station.

At 24k a block a medium costs ~346mil/month.

At 48k a block a medium costs ~691mil/month.

TLDR: The speed increases makes it easy to compete with stations.
Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#18 - 2013-05-10 06:54:20 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk.

I think this is an excellent solution.

You will need input (datacores, RDBs etc) and output (BPCs) to be taken and delivered from the station hangar for this. I think that change should be applied to the way private research is handled too. Having output magically delivered to station rather than to the POS array itself would be a good useability improvement. The less time I have to spend hunting through hundreds of labs to gather all my BPCs the better.

Caleb Ayrania wrote:
The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job.

Yes, this risk would have to remain in order to prevent "public" slots from being strictly better than "private" ones.

Would you be happy to see that change applied to all POS slots (i.e. manufacturing as well)? I would, but applying that buff to manufacturing slots is a massive buff compared to applying it to just research slots.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#19 - 2013-05-10 08:11:35 UTC
Blueprint Seller wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk.

I think this is an excellent solution.

You will need input (datacores, RDBs etc) and output (BPCs) to be taken and delivered from the station hangar for this. I think that change should be applied to the way private research is handled too. Having output magically delivered to station rather than to the POS array itself would be a good useability improvement. The less time I have to spend hunting through hundreds of labs to gather all my BPCs the better.

Caleb Ayrania wrote:
The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job.

Yes, this risk would have to remain in order to prevent "public" slots from being strictly better than "private" ones.

Would you be happy to see that change applied to all POS slots (i.e. manufacturing as well)? I would, but applying that buff to manufacturing slots is a massive buff compared to applying it to just research slots.

I too think this is an excellent solution.

I've run a lot of research rental operations using the existing functionality and I think I've pushed that to it's limit. It's basically horrible in almost every way. This suggestion would make it excellent and buff industry in Hi-Sec, Low-Sec and 0.0 in one swoop. This will also make large scale industry more scaleable, as currently you'll hit the RSI/Ballache barrier quite early due to the terrible functionality and nasty UI.

This would also give industrialists something worth fighting over.

Certainly an idea worth pushing on the CSM. We would need to see what CCP says about technical issues.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2013-05-10 09:08:04 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Blueprint Seller wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk.

I think this is an excellent solution.

You will need input (datacores, RDBs etc) and output (BPCs) to be taken and delivered from the station hangar for this. I think that change should be applied to the way private research is handled too. Having output magically delivered to station rather than to the POS array itself would be a good useability improvement. The less time I have to spend hunting through hundreds of labs to gather all my BPCs the better.

Caleb Ayrania wrote:
The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job.

Yes, this risk would have to remain in order to prevent "public" slots from being strictly better than "private" ones.

Would you be happy to see that change applied to all POS slots (i.e. manufacturing as well)? I would, but applying that buff to manufacturing slots is a massive buff compared to applying it to just research slots.

I too think this is an excellent solution.

I've run a lot of research rental operations using the existing functionality and I think I've pushed that to it's limit. It's basically horrible in almost every way. This suggestion would make it excellent and buff industry in Hi-Sec, Low-Sec and 0.0 in one swoop. This will also make large scale industry more scaleable, as currently you'll hit the RSI/Ballache barrier quite early due to the terrible functionality and nasty UI.

This would also give industrialists something worth fighting over.

Certainly an idea worth pushing on the CSM. We would need to see what CCP says about technical issues.


This idea has my attention.

Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

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