These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Tibus Heth denounces Federation; offers condolences to Republic

Author
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#41 - 2013-05-09 15:24:10 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'm sure the Minmatar get the idea that the Caldari are anti-slavery, but the State has not once acted upon this belief in an interventionist fashion.




The Amarr are slavers - we dislike that. But we have no right to tell the Empire what to do just as they have no right to tell us what to do. And so we make our opinion known and I think we should scale back our dealings with the Amarr and build bridges elsewhere. But we won't intervene with the Amarr because we do not have the right to dictate how all those people should live their lives.


And soon you will have not rights at all. Heth will have you all burn to fuel his own rage.

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-05-09 15:29:33 UTC
You certainly do a talented impersonation of the way he hijacks conversations and turns them towards his agenda, pilot Jorkarzul. It's uncanny.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#43 - 2013-05-09 15:29:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:


I believe in meritocracy, in competition, in the economics of humanity and in the free market of ideas. Alliances are an idea, and ideas are products: if a better product comes along, I'll take my custom to that product instead.

I'm sorry if you take issue with the idea that some of us would rather buy from the Sebiestor than from the Khanid. Maybe that should inspire you to upgrade what you're selling.


I like to see the alliances as friendships instead of just 'deals'. Maybe I'm old fashion that way or maybe I'm more human then you but if you truly were that cold you would have never rescued a common brutor friend of ours all those years ago.

Or has the recent years been so jading to whatever is left of your soul to leave you honorless?

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-05-09 15:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Persons have friendships, Kith. Nations have agreements, treaties and deals.

Believe me, if anything I sometimes worry I'm becoming even more of a hothead with every passing week. I don't think I'm becoming less honourable, though.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#45 - 2013-05-09 15:42:02 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

I'm sorry if you take issue with the idea that some of us would rather buy from the Sebiestor than from the Khanid. Maybe that should inspire you to upgrade what you're selling.


Disclaimer: not all Caldari agree with the sentiment that the Khanid should invade the State with a fleet of Revelations in order to remain competitive.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-05-09 15:44:32 UTC
on the other hand, if they were selling Khanid-modified Revelations, I'd buy ten.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#47 - 2013-05-09 17:17:12 UTC
I just wanted to say something about interventionism, as we do seem to get a lot of trouble for our "business-only" attitude, which has always confused me a little bit. I'd like to point out that these are my own opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the State at large. They seem fairly prevalent amongst the people I live with, though.

We find the idea of making an outsider change what they are to be a little repugnant. Our concept of freedom applies to groups moreso than individuals, so we find it very, very important to let a group do what it will. Expressions of our own distaste are to be made subtly, through non-contact or politeness. This extends to all of our neighbours, though inn some cases our patience has been sorely tested.

I'm pleased by the Executor's statement and hope that it is seen as an opportunity for new bonds of friendship between us. Perhaps such a friendship could be a bridge between the Republic and Empire, as it could serve between us and the Federation

The Cluster is split in two, and will never be made whole until one side reaches across to the other. Odd, but perhaps fitting, that our warrior-Executor would be the first to hold open his hand. Cynicism or no, this is an opportunity. I hope that we can all make the most of it.

I think that opportunity is a future that the Ray of Matar would have liked to see.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#48 - 2013-05-09 17:30:49 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Well, that's a very Federal attitude. Do you not think it could possibly be that the reason we've not acted upon our anti-slavery stance in an interventionist fashion is because we view interventionism as morally repugnant?

Intervening in that manner is what the Federation did to us back in the day which is where the entire trouble between our nations came from. It's what the Amarr want to do to everyone.

It's what you did in 37. But I suppose that doesn't count?
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2013-05-09 18:37:34 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Why are we allies again? Because frankly given that it's an open secret that the Caldari are among the "wayward children" the Reclaiming is aimed at, and given that your ideals and ours are basically incompatible, I often wonder just what exactly is in it for us other than that the Empire is a huge market for high-tech goods and a huge exporter of food.

Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.


If you think that alliances are made of ideals, I am afraid that you may be mistaken sir.

And if you think that the Caldari can find another entity with only compatible ideals, I do not know what to add either.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-05-09 23:39:40 UTC
You recall my earlier point about principles? Well opposition to slavery is a Caldari principle, and it's currently one we're forgoing for the sake of convenience.

There are other options - ones where we come off no worse for moving over to them, and don't have to ignore our ideals. I'm not suggesting we should find somebody who shares our ideals exactly - that would basically be impossible, after all - but we can at least find a partner who isn't incompatible with our ideals.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#51 - 2013-05-09 23:51:45 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Well, that's a very Federal attitude. Do you not think it could possibly be that the reason we've not acted upon our anti-slavery stance in an interventionist fashion is because we view interventionism as morally repugnant?

Intervening in that manner is what the Federation did to us back in the day which is where the entire trouble between our nations came from. It's what the Amarr want to do to everyone.

It's what you did in 37. But I suppose that doesn't count?


Actually it is a superb example to discuss and counts in every way.

Sansha Kuvakei was/is a Caldari and he violated Caldari law and tradition, much as the officer who authorized the slave-based Amarrian disaster management crew. Kuvakei's violation was on an incredible scale.

From the perspective of Caldari philosophy and thus the leaders of the Caldari State, the Caldari State's involvement in the attempted dismantling of Sansha's Nation was not intervening in the affairs of another people. It was an attempt to police a rogue Caldari.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-05-10 00:33:58 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
You make it sound like those are the only two options - complaint or resignation.

There's also the option of taking action, you know. There's no guarantee of success of course, but it's not like the only avenues available to us are impotent whining and impotent apathy.


It is a question of while slavery itself may be an abhorrent practice, why would it justify the shedding of Caldari blood? We owe no obligations to those that are not citizens of the State, as such any assistance or allegiance to be given to the Republic should be based on political reality and the balance of power in the cluster. I find it distasteful in the extreme to insult the intelligence of the Minmatar to tell them that this is not the case. To conjure ideals and principles in this case leads to the same sort of empty rhetoric and point scoring favoured by Federalists and Provists -- not a relationship that provides tangible benefits in a mutually advantageous framework.

Samira Kernher wrote:
The amount of disrespect many members of the State show for their actual allies in favor of their enemies is very disappointing.


Not so disappointing as your failure to realize that there exists no such thing as permanent alliances, only permanent interests.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#53 - 2013-05-10 00:41:09 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
You certainly do a talented impersonation of the way he hijacks conversations and turns them towards his agenda, pilot Jorkarzul. It's uncanny.


I am unsure with what you saying. I have not hijacked this and turned this to my agenda. I simply have stated that Heth want full control of the state to press a war that in many ways is pointless. His hate will be the end of the Caldari people, and from what I have read most sensible (if there are any) Caldari members would agree. I have no agenda here.

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#54 - 2013-05-10 00:50:49 UTC
Theres another side to that coin Stitcher. Its ok having ideals, but should alliances be based on them. Is it not more important to base them on the security of your nation.

Amarr Empire are they not the strongest nation in New Eden, and have they not been good and valuable allies to this State. If we treat them with direspect and become friendly with their enemy, we will probably lose them as a friend. Next time we need help from powerful allie they may not be there to help.

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#55 - 2013-05-10 05:58:43 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Theres another side to that coin Stitcher. Its ok having ideals, but should alliances be based on them. Is it not more important to base them on the security of your nation.

Amarr Empire are they not the strongest nation in New Eden, and have they not been good and valuable allies to this State. If we treat them with direspect and become friendly with their enemy, we will probably lose them as a friend. Next time we need help from powerful allie they may not be there to help.



You do realize that the State isn't exempt from the Amarrian Reclaiming, I hope? Your allies in the Empire have every intention of subjugating the Caldari and forcing you to convert to their culture, religion and laws along with the rest of us. Your ties to the Empire are born of temporary convenience. Don't kid yourselves into believing that the Amarr see you as equals. They don't. They don't even treat many of their own, who've fought along side them for centuries and who've adopted their religion, as equal partners. Just ask the average Ni-Kunni how they're treated by the Amarr.

Please don't take this as a Gallentean attempting to tell you how to run your affairs. That is not my intent, truly and I mean no offense. Consider my words more as a friendly caution.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#56 - 2013-05-10 06:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Scherezad wrote:
I just wanted to say something about interventionism, as we do seem to get a lot of trouble for our "business-only" attitude, which has always confused me a little bit. I'd like to point out that these are my own opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the State at large. They seem fairly prevalent amongst the people I live with, though.

We find the idea of making an outsider change what they are to be a little repugnant. Our concept of freedom applies to groups moreso than individuals, so we find it very, very important to let a group do what it will. Expressions of our own distaste are to be made subtly, through non-contact or politeness. This extends to all of our neighbours, though inn some cases our patience has been sorely tested.

You mind your own damn business. It's a wonderfully Caldari virtue and the cluster would be better if everyone adopted it.

Here is the thing that the Caldari who say they're 'compromising' their principles by doing business with slavers miss: For every machine you give me that can do the job of several people, that's fewer slaves I require. Trade with the Caldari and the introduction of more and better automated systems reduces the economic need for slavery.

The Caldari have done more to 'liberate' the slaves of the Kingdom than the Republic's saber-rattling or the Federation's whining has ever done.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#57 - 2013-05-10 06:38:49 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
[quote=Scherezad]

The Caldari have done more to 'liberate' the slaves of the Kingdom than the Republic's saber-rattling or the Federation's whining.


I will admit that the Common tongue is not my first, but my concept of Saber Rattling is just shaking your sword with no action. I believe the open Revolt and Rebellion and 5 years of war do not count as "Saber Rattling", Also I want to point that all the Caldari have probly done is take slaves from hard labor to the bedrooms. So in fact you have made their live worse.

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#58 - 2013-05-10 06:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Kingdom. Not the Empire.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#59 - 2013-05-10 07:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
For every machine you give me that can do the job of several people, that's fewer slaves I require. Trade with the Caldari and the introduction of more and better automated systems reduces the economic need for slavery.


You should not be holding slaves out of 'economic need'. You should be holding them out of concern for their spiritual development.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2013-05-10 07:15:21 UTC
I would suggest that those talking to Stitcher in this thread should remember that he is currently a member of a known terrorist organisation and take that into account when they deal with him.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family