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[Odyssey Feedback Request] New Sensor Overlay

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#401 - 2013-05-27 18:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Even if I live in wormholes, and even if I usually always complain... For once, I agree with the developpers. Yes using DSPs this way is the only way for them to be useful, and its a creative way of using them. However, I think it's too far from the original conception of how scanning should work. People using only one probe and being able to divide in ten seconds by 4 or 5 the amount of signature they need to scan to find the right one... Sounds like a bit too OP to me.

Now that Astrometrics V is being changed, and that scanning mechanics are made easier and quicker (+ new med slots !), I understand why they are removing them. Of course it would've been better if they had found another use for them instead of removing them entierly.

Why not creating T2 probes to match T2 launchers ? Two t2 variations, like two t2 variations for each ammo. One core scanner probe II for high strength, and deep space ones for high range + high precision. Or something like that. Could've been fun.

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Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2013-05-27 20:59:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hey everyone,

lots of typing :) some good stuffs


The second is the jump-in scan and lack of options surrounding it. There'll hopefully be a blog on this feature soon that goes into more detail, but a major part of the feature brief was to find a way to make exploration possibilities more naturally visible to players of all ages (including new ones, obviously).The jump-in scan is one of the main ways we're hoping to meet that goal, by opening a permanent window into the hidden world of EVE. We're also, as a general goal, trying to gently cut back on the number of options that we expose in the client, both because it allows us to spend our "user complexity budget" more efficiently and because it's expensive in terms of development and maintenance. Our goal, rather, is to tune and target the jump-in scan so that it becomes a natural part of the jump sequence, rather than some outlandish imposition. We're going to be evaluating its intrusiveness on an ongoing basis both prior to and after release, to try and ensure that we hit that goal.


If anyone has any outstanding questions not covered here, please ask Smile

-Greyscale




Okay... I read your whole response, and I am not against this feature...i want you first and foremost to realize and recognize that. But in your response you say exactly what I am saying is wrong with this feature....

Not EVERYONE wants to do this.....not EVERYONE wants to go and play in anoms and other things. In fact there are many of us who will never ever use this, even though I think its top notch and provides others with some interesting game play.

But your solution is - we want to open a permanent window - why? Did someone ask for this? Did your paying public tear down the walls and say "boy do we need this feature added to EvE!"

I am not gonna rage and quit or any of that I do love this terrible game that we play......I just think this is daft, it will probably be the # 1 requested change after the release. Sometimes you want to go out scanning and you want to have this active. Other times I must admit its just a bunch of fluff that clutters the screen and adds zero value to game play.

I have added several prior posts on this subject - and unless you are in a ship that you actual can use to go and clear anoms or care about the scanned down sites i have no idea why i would need or use this - my freighter is not headed into an anom any time soon, nor a JF or my macks or almost any industrial for that matter and when traveling the wastes of null and low sec the last thing i give a flying about is anoms when im trying to get the hell out of a gate camp or bubble.

Sorry but you ask for our feedback and sometimes its not going to be what you want to hear.

~Regan~
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#403 - 2013-05-28 04:38:43 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:


Okay... I read your whole response, and I am not against this feature...i want you first and foremost to realize and recognize that. But in your response you say exactly what I am saying is wrong with this feature....

Not EVERYONE wants to do this.....not EVERYONE wants to go and play in anoms and other things. In fact there are many of us who will never ever use this, even though I think its top notch and provides others with some interesting game play.

But your solution is - we want to open a permanent window - why? Did someone ask for this? Did your paying public tear down the walls and say "boy do we need this feature added to EvE!"

I am not gonna rage and quit or any of that I do love this terrible game that we play......I just think this is daft, it will probably be the # 1 requested change after the release. Sometimes you want to go out scanning and you want to have this active. Other times I must admit its just a bunch of fluff that clutters the screen and adds zero value to game play.

I have added several prior posts on this subject - and unless you are in a ship that you actual can use to go and clear anoms or care about the scanned down sites i have no idea why i would need or use this - my freighter is not headed into an anom any time soon, nor a JF or my macks or almost any industrial for that matter and when traveling the wastes of null and low sec the last thing i give a flying about is anoms when im trying to get the hell out of a gate camp or bubble.

Sorry but you ask for our feedback and sometimes its not going to be what you want to hear.

~Regan~


To be completely honest, I'm almost completely sure that if CCP limited themselves to only adding things that the userbase said should be added, nothing would new be added and nothing that already exists would be improved.

Ever.
Solhild
Doomheim
#404 - 2013-05-28 05:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Solhild
Personally I like the feature and have no problem with it running every jump-in.
My request is that you look at the graphics effect on jump. If the jump effect starts and the overlay sweeps behind the effect, there's a graphics glitch allowing the nebula to be visible but not the overlay effect. This just looks wrong.
I'll try to catch a pic of it later.

Pic here.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#405 - 2013-05-28 06:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
I've given up trying to make sense of CCP's logic here. They remove DSP, and say "oh don't worry, the new discovery scanner gives you that same functionality" and then they turn around and take that functionality away for no ******* reason except "oh, the scan strength might go down a bit when you use a spread formation, and for some completely asinine reason that's totally unacceptable so we'll just remove sensor strengths entirely from the overlay and probe scanner and just reason it away." And then you say "well you can sort of get the new information by doing math" without telling us how that's supposed to be accomplished

I mean seriously, what the hell were you thinking?
The only reason people aren't massively pissed off with you over this is because people haven't really seen it yet.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#406 - 2013-05-28 07:24:57 UTC
LOL CCP. Adds intrusive windshield wiper visual effect, and claims that offering no way to disable or customize it is what's best. 'Gently' (just the tip, right?) removing options from the client, as they say.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#407 - 2013-05-28 09:24:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Clearly, this makes the sort of DSP look-up tables that advanced explorers are used to somewhat more difficult to leverage, as there's no longer a handily-exposed variable for this (the information can still be largely derived from the [clamped] range deviation visible in the tooltip, but you'll have to do a bit of math in your head to figure it out). The new "spread formation" allows this to be somewhat mitigated by acting as a poor man's DSP, but it's nevertheless a reduction in available information at this specific stage of the process. Given the efficiency gains elsewhere, though, we're of the belief that this shouldn't, in practice significantly disadvantage probers relative to the current TQ system.


So you're not bringing DSPs back because … ?

Here's how exploration worked with DPS:

  • Deploy 1 x DSP at 256AU range
  • Scan
  • See no signatures that might be even remotely interesting
  • Move to next system


Here's how exploration is going to work with your "a bit of math in your head" system:

  • Enter system
  • Move mouse over every single cosmic signature, do "a bit of math in your head"
  • Determine that one signature is in the table-range of being marginally interesting
  • Probe down the signature, determine that it is just a M555 wormhole
  • Move to next system


Or there's this option:

  • Enter system
  • Deploy 7 x Core Scanner Probe
  • See some signatures that are remotely interesting (remembering that the higher sensitivity and lower range of the core scanner probe means that you do not get consistent signal strength readings)
  • Probe down signatures
  • Find a bunch of K162 wormholes


In my hisec exploration, there are two or three signatures I'm interested in: one of them being a specific type of wormhole. At present I can complete my sweep of the local constellation in about 20 minutes, thanks to the DSP mechanics that you have removed without consideration.

Under the new system, I'm looking at taking at least double this time, meaning that in one play session I will not have time to probe down the wormhole that I'm interested in and bring through the ships and resources I need for the remainder of the session.

So please just consider not removing DSPs? I think you'll find that the people who actually do exploration know a bit more about this part of the game than you do.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#408 - 2013-05-28 09:34:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The first is the impact on wormhole intel. Obviously this is a change to the status quo, but it's still not obviously a particularly destructive one. The intel that this system provides can already be obtained by launching a bunch of probes and regularly mashing "scan", and we're not huge fans of systems that require tedious and repetitive manual busy work (yes, the d-scanner, we know), so on the face of it we regard this as a straight-up improvement.


You regard reducing wormhole intel as a straight-up improvement. That's an interesting direction you're taking there Twisted
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The jump-in scan is one of the main ways we're hoping to meet that goal, by opening a permanent window into the hidden world of EVE.


As for forcing people to use this new feature, what about people who don't care about walking in stations? I mean, exploration? I'm sure the freighter pilot wandering through Uedama is not particularly concerned with the number of anomalies, and just wants to see who's on gate.

Some folks simply might not care to have their space view littered with things that are dangerous to double-click in the middle of a fight.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Kharamete
Royal Assent
#409 - 2013-05-28 10:11:57 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
[quote=mkint]
Can probably still find the occasional poster whinging about the good old days, when probing was for manly men with the intestinal fortitude to watch a timer tick down for-*******-ever.


It's not so much the mechanics I miss, but rather the fact that a large X-Type Guristas shield booster sold for 4-5 billion isk back then. :P

CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

My little youtube videos can be found here
blink alt
Doomheim
#410 - 2013-05-28 11:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: blink alt
The great sensor overlay nerf is now on sisi, this is annoying. I should learn to just crush my dreams and my hopes everytime I see something cool on sisi. If you ever see the most fantastic and wonderful thing on the test server just assume it is going to be killed and never make it to TQ.

I suppose I can apprecaite greyscale's honesty on the matter. Can't make people too effiecent at scanning. I just find it disapointing that they don't want to enable a specific playstyle. Is it really all that bad if people want to ignore X content and just want to do Y and have a ingame mechanic that allows them to find Y faster while ignoring X without a cost?

And yes I do agree that overall with all the changes combined I will be much more effiecent than before, but what was so wrong with the previous efficency? Why must I now scan down every single signature to at least 25% to figure out if it is NOT what I want.
Seth Asthereun
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#411 - 2013-05-28 12:00:55 UTC
Seems that filters no longer works atm on sisi, i can't get rid of anomaly or gravi while scanning.
Other than that there should be a way to have all the results on the scanner after you probbed one, without going out of system or log.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#412 - 2013-05-28 12:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
-Post Removed by Alvatore DiMarco-
Space Wanderer
#413 - 2013-05-28 14:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If anyone has any outstanding questions not covered here, please ask Smile


Glad to see you back. I don't really know if you can answer the following questions, or if you are in charge only of the overlay and not on the scanning interface itself, but there are some concerns with scanning that have not been yet addressed. In case you are not entitled to talk about them, just let us know.


1) Scanning modules.

They seem to be rather overpowered, compared to the current mechanics, despite the introduction of the stacking penalty. While you took care of the acquisition module by allowing only one, we still have pinpointing modules that when stacked can allow to find almost any site/ship in two scan cycles, and rangefinding modules that when stacked allow to find "unscannable" ships without need of virtue implants. Both situations imply a rather severe change in the game mechanics. Any comments?

I also question the choice of making them passive modules. It stands to reason that if you really want to introduce such powerful modules they should at least be used only when you are uncloaked, thus adding an element of risk to the reward they give.

Finally, the fact that those modules are all for midslots probably means that anathema and cheetah are going to become almost useless. Do you plan to rebalance those two ships?


2) Lack of customizable formations.

While I don't mind the introduction of noob probe formations, what I really don't understand is why there is no way to save your own formations, and what is worse, why do you make even harder than it was before to deploy your own formations. There is really no reason to punish advanced explorers like that.

I have to admint that I haven't checked the last SISI patch yet, but from what I read you don't seem to have addressed those two issues.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#414 - 2013-05-28 14:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Reporting in from SiSi, where I've just been hopping around in an Incursion constellation.

Anoms appear as normal, and sigs still appear on the overlay and on the the scan list as well - albeit at 0% strength. I don't know about all the cherry-pickers out there, but this works for me.

Interestingly - and a very welcome discovery - it would appear that Sansha in Incursion systems do not warp into Relic sites.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#415 - 2013-05-28 14:38:53 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Even if I live in wormholes, and even if I usually always complain... For once, I agree with the developpers. Yes using DSPs this way is the only way for them to be useful, and its a creative way of using them. However, I think it's too far from the original conception of how scanning should work. People using only one probe and being able to divide in ten seconds by 4 or 5 the amount of signature they need to scan to find the right one... Sounds like a bit too OP to me.

I'm with this guy.

I spend 99% of my time in wormholes, and scan for most of that time. It's never sat well with me that you could discard all but a handful of signatures in a system simply by dropping a DSP and referring to a lookup table (or memory given enough time).

This is probably an unpopular point of view because I can accept that there will be people who were reliant on signature sizes and finding needles in haystacks a lot faster than was ever intended, but if this change brings back some of the mystery in wormholes, even if it involves spending a little more time, then it'll be for the greater good imo.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#416 - 2013-05-28 14:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Durzel wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Even if I live in wormholes, and even if I usually always complain... For once, I agree with the developpers. Yes using DSPs this way is the only way for them to be useful, and its a creative way of using them. However, I think it's too far from the original conception of how scanning should work. People using only one probe and being able to divide in ten seconds by 4 or 5 the amount of signature they need to scan to find the right one... Sounds like a bit too OP to me.

I'm with this guy.

I spend 99% of my time in wormholes, and scan for most of that time. It's never sat well with me that you could discard all but a handful of signatures in a system simply by dropping a DSP and referring to a lookup table (or memory given enough time).

This is probably an unpopular point of view because I can accept that there will be people who were reliant on signature sizes and finding needles in haystacks a lot faster than was ever intended, but if this change brings back some of the mystery in wormholes, even if it involves spending a little more time, then it'll be for the greater good imo.


According to my tests literally just 15 minutes ago, the Discovery Scanner means you'll have warpable IDs on all anoms in-system and you'll have 0% IDs for all sigs in-system. Clicking on the sigs with the solar system map up will give you a red sphere for that sig.
marVLs
#417 - 2013-05-28 16:07:09 UTC
ffs CCP seriously is that hard to add only one option for sensor overlay? option to perma off it, everyone want itAttention

Like new radial menu, when hovering on overlay icon there will show 3 icons:
- perma off
- perma on
- on time after jump undocking scan

Evil

Sory im mad but... sensor overlay is cool, i like it, but there MUST be option to perma off it, very useful for some situations
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#418 - 2013-05-28 18:42:30 UTC
As an occasional explorer, I quite like the way the new things work. In fact I also liked the changes made in Apocrypha to scanning and got pretty good at it. Sad to see it change, but I have nothing against the new way, even though It took me longer to pinpoint signatures with this current incarnation, but I presume it is just a matter of getting used to it. I like the standard formations, as I used to use these 2 formations 99% of the time anyway.

What I do not like:

1. That overlay, or the wipe effect across space every few seconds, is most irritating. Ideally only show this once when someone enters the system. There is likely to be massive backlash if there is no option to turn this effect off.

2. The radial menu on the scanner button is the pits! Now it takes 2 clicks to get to the scanner! It would be best to remove this radial menu, as it is non-intuitive and wastes time. >90% of the time players want to open the scanner (imho). If you want to give options, then let players customize what they want this button to do. Initially I used to get massive lag when using this radial menu. The lag is now gone, but the menu bugs the hell out of me every time I want to use the scanner.

Any colour you like.
Gladi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#419 - 2013-05-28 18:44:05 UTC
Gladi wrote:
Hi guys

Dont know if it has been mentioned, but is it intentional to get all the anomalies listed on the scanner when entering a system?

currently we have to wait for the onboard scanner to finish once we enter a system. on SiSi, when i have the scanner windows open and jump to a new system, I get all the anomalies and signatues listed even before the transition effect is done! No wait for the Overlay animation to end, ist right there.

I mean hey thats great, its easier to catch those anomalie farmers, but for them its unfair. If they keep an eye on the local they have a chance the escape now. If it stays that way, they will have a even smaller window!



No answere to this one yet?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#420 - 2013-05-28 18:54:22 UTC
Gladi wrote:
Gladi wrote:
Hi guys

Dont know if it has been mentioned, but is it intentional to get all the anomalies listed on the scanner when entering a system?

currently we have to wait for the onboard scanner to finish once we enter a system. on SiSi, when i have the scanner windows open and jump to a new system, I get all the anomalies and signatues listed even before the transition effect is done! No wait for the Overlay animation to end, ist right there.

I mean hey thats great, its easier to catch those anomalie farmers, but for them its unfair. If they keep an eye on the local they have a chance the escape now. If it stays that way, they will have a even smaller window!



No answere to this one yet?


They've messed around with the scanner system a few times now, so by now I suspect the logical answer to this would have to be "Yes, it's intentional."