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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

First post First post First post
Author
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#1441 - 2013-05-31 14:32:01 UTC
Is it only me, or does the instantly populated results list feel a little immersion breaking?

I mean, the in-space anom brackets only show after the sensor has finished one "sweep", but the results window already knows everything. Feels very wrong to me and is a huge buff to ceptor pilots.
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1442 - 2013-05-31 16:55:41 UTC
True, I hope its a bug.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1443 - 2013-05-31 16:57:41 UTC
Nam Dnilb wrote:
Is it only me, or does the instantly populated results list feel a little immersion breaking?

I mean, the in-space anom brackets only show after the sensor has finished one "sweep", but the results window already knows everything. Feels very wrong to me and is a huge buff to ceptor pilots.

Noticed the same thing, kind of kills the feeling of discovery.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#1444 - 2013-05-31 20:46:38 UTC
Dragon Mnementh wrote:
Dear CCP

as for now i managed today the first time to test that new probing an hacking to the end.
Amd i am not a verry best friend of it.
You ruined my actual gameplay to zero!!!!!!!!!!!
i was on live servers scanning and probing, and my income is to find empty hidden belts magno and radar sites amd get them done.

So now every one see a hidden belt by entering a system ... so i never get a lonly hidden belt anymore and income is 0
i tested a low sec data site , scanned them out and tried to hack them. sure i got somthing but loot ? what the heck did the designer think? floating container that disapear in secons with loot. so my income is 0 again.

so my first try is verry frustrating

and when there will be no changes i will manage to cancel my account.

this is not what i whant tp play

i whants to get a nice evening with my friends play like i was played before these changes and get a chance to get some loot and income, now i will have a chatsystem with an avatar and no income anymore


Welsome to the lifeof a non-blobber in EVE. Take a ticket, the line of people whose hobbies have been ruined by CCP's blatant disregard for non-supercorp intersts makes more people join the ragequit queue by the hour.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#1445 - 2013-05-31 20:54:26 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


The coming changes in Odyssey will make null sec mining no longer Viable for me. I will not join one of the massive blocks of null sec just to get access to space that is safe enough to mine in, I will just stop mining. And now exploring will be pointless as sites are so easy to find there will not be enough to go around and my income from them will drop significantly. I have gotten bored with mining and manufacturing in high sec, yet I can not move to null without joining a coalition that will dictate to me how to play, and what to do when I am logged in.

The big attraction of EVE for me is the sand box. I make my own gameplay, and play the way I want. These changes have made my chosen gameplay no longer viable, instead you promote ganking, and make ganking even easier than it is now. Ganking is the most common activity in every PVP MMO I have ever played, It does not need help, it will continue strong even if you try to curb it. If you encourage ganking, the gankers will eventually drive all the non-gankers from the game. What will happen to EVE when there is nobody left in the game but gankers? The same that happens to every other MMO, the gankers will move on to a new game and the game and there will be nobody left. It happened in Diablo, It happened in SWG, It happened in AOC, please do not let it happen in EVE.


CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.
Zircon Dasher
#1446 - 2013-05-31 21:00:55 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


The coming changes in Odyssey will make null sec mining no longer Viable for me. I will not join one of the massive blocks of null sec just to get access to space that is safe enough to mine in, I will just stop mining. And now exploring will be pointless as sites are so easy to find there will not be enough to go around and my income from them will drop significantly. I have gotten bored with mining and manufacturing in high sec, yet I can not move to null without joining a coalition that will dictate to me how to play, and what to do when I am logged in.

The big attraction of EVE for me is the sand box. I make my own gameplay, and play the way I want. These changes have made my chosen gameplay no longer viable, instead you promote ganking, and make ganking even easier than it is now. Ganking is the most common activity in every PVP MMO I have ever played, It does not need help, it will continue strong even if you try to curb it. If you encourage ganking, the gankers will eventually drive all the non-gankers from the game. What will happen to EVE when there is nobody left in the game but gankers? The same that happens to every other MMO, the gankers will move on to a new game and the game and there will be nobody left. It happened in Diablo, It happened in SWG, It happened in AOC, please do not let it happen in EVE.


CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.


Plz contract all stuff to me

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1447 - 2013-06-01 01:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Scuzzy Logic wrote:


CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.


(off-topic)
If you've got a problem with CSM being entirely composed of nullsec candidates, then vote. Get your friends to vote. Get your enemies to vote. Get their friends and their enemies to vote.

The only reason nullsec consistently dominates CSM is because most nullsec residents vote and most highsec residents do not. Lowsec residents aren't nearly as numerous as either of the other two, so we'll ignore them for now.
"It's bad ISK/hr to vote" "It's just a publicity stunt" "The CSM doesn't listen to us" "CCP doesn't obey them so why care?" are all.. ahem ..bad excuses.

Blast and damnation! Vote, highsec! Even if it's for a potted plant!
(/off-topic)

Returning to a more on-topic note.. please. Miners will continue to mine. It will just happen that the more adventurous ones will make better money (or not, if they aren't paying attention) and the lazy, fat, sloppy ones will continue to make terrible money and be cantankerous self-entitled jerks that nobody can stand to be within 3LY of.

---

What I actually came here to say was that it would appear returning probes manually via the "Recall Probes" button actually results in a near-instant (or possibly instant) recall of the probes. So much for the business of "you have to wait for probes to return, so instant recall on jump is immersion-breaking".

Except their cheapo Hobgoblin Is.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1448 - 2013-06-01 10:23:32 UTC
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.



ccp i still wait for your answer !!!..

If you screw all LG virtue implants owners with the new upcoming nerfs i like to get an reimbursement of my isk spend for them at least... or let me them unplug and sell them to people who might think they still need them , as i think they wont make a difference now if you have mods.

or think about how something to change to kg virtue implants so that they keep their values
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1449 - 2013-06-01 10:43:22 UTC
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.



ccp i still wait for your answer !!!..

If you screw all LG virtue implants owners with the new upcoming nerfs i like to get an reimbursement of my isk spend for them at least... or let me them unplug and sell them to people who might think they still need them , as i think they wont make a difference now if you have mods.

or think about how something to change to kg virtue implants so that they keep their values


No to getting your ISK back.

No to unplugging them.

Everything in EVE is subject to change. You should not log in if you can't handle this fact.

They'll still be useful in letting you scan faster than people who don't have them, just as they always have done.

Whine, moan and cry less.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1450 - 2013-06-01 11:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maggeridon Thoraz
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:




They'll still be useful in letting you scan faster than people who don't have them, just as they always have done.

Whine, moan and cry less.



please show me practicly were they help you now beeing at scanning faster ?

now that you get the 100 % hits easier then ever with the mods, i doubt that having a lg virtue plugged in will help me to get my results in less scans.

if i get my 100 % allways with 3 scans with or without lg virtue , how does that make my scanning faster. they would give me an edge if i need one scan less
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1451 - 2013-06-01 12:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Solaris
This started out as an extremely snarky, unhelpful, post, but I decided I'd probably be better off making something more structured.

Auto-Recalling and Teleporting Probes.

Quote:
The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead... No more forsaken probes in space!


I'm going to attempt to sum up why I think just about everything in that quote is a terrible change.

Consequences

EVE is not a game that holds your hand, it is not a game that lets you get away with making mistakes, quite the contrary, making mistakes in EVE often results in you being beaten into the ground. EVE does not prevent you from burning out your modules when you overheat them to dangerous levels, EVE does not turn on your hardeners for you when you begin taking fire, EVE does not prevent you from jumping your Titan into the middle of hostile space instead of creating a bridge for your fleet, EVE does not teleport your drones into your drone bay should you either forget to recall them or are forced to leave without them.

You made that mistake or choice, and you live with the consequences, be it burnt out guns, a destroyed ship, billions in assets lost, or having to buy new drones.

Yet, EVE will now actively step in and prevent you from making the mistake of forgetting your probes by having them teleport into your cargo hold.

This means you will never realise 5 jumps later that you've lost all your probes and have to go buy new ones from someone who either produced them or purchased them from the Sisters of EVE (or both.) This means that you will never go into a wormhole, warp off somewhere and discover you have no probes (somehow people do this,) meaning you have to either make friends with the locals to arrange your safe departure or contact one of EVE's wormhole rescue groups.

By implementing auto-recalling probes on leaving the system, you are not only removing consequences, but removing interactions with other players.

I'm sure some people will say that it's just removing a tedious button click, but it's about as much of a tedious button click as recalling your drones or changing your ammunition to match your engagement range.

All of this can be applied to allowing your probes to expire because you weren't paying attention. Something I myself have actually done, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Immersion.

Probes have warp speeds, when they are deployed into space and sent out to scan for hostiles or signatures or what have you, we wait for them to warp into position before they begin their scan cycle. When we reposition them, we wait for them to warp to their new designated positions.

Why do we have to do this if they apparently posess the ability of teleportation? Of course the answer is that teleporting combat probes would be hidiously imbalanced, but hey, it's there, we know that they warp around. Personally after watching their little dots move around on the star map so many times, I find the teleporting probes as jarring as it would be to have my slow-ass Ogres sitting 80km away from me suddenly teleport into my drone bay because I recalled them or initiated warp. Why did I have to wait for them to fly over there in the first place?!

Forsaken Probes in space

This one isn't so much a problem so much as potential, I had an interesting, if lengthy discussion on twitter some days ago involving a number of people. One of the points raised was that unlike abandoned drones, you can't do anything with abandoned probes in your system. I'd like to see that changed.

I'd like to be able to probe down forgotten probes (or probes left behind for tactical reasons,) and recover them. Waste not, want not, after all.

Or what if I could scan down and hack into probes left in tactical positions by a hostile while he's gone and sabotage them to fly back to his ship and blow up when he reconnects to them? (That's a pie in the sky idea, it's probably not doable, but it'd be pretty damn cool.)

That got me thinking of what about active probes? What if I could probe down active probes and hack them to either shut them down or mess with a hostile probing ship's scanners who is likely sitting somewhere far off cloaked and can't be impeded otherwise.

Probes in space actually have some interesting design posibilities, and I'd hate to see them invalidated because some people find hitting a recall probes button and waiting 2~3 seconds for your probes to return and dock unbearable.

Hope this helps.
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#1452 - 2013-06-02 01:16:28 UTC
I can see the direction this is going....

You refit your Tengu with HAMs instead of heavies but fail to change the missiles in your cargo hold. Aura politely informs you of this before you can undock.

You accept a mission against Guristas but you hardeners are geared for another faction. Aura informs you of this fact as you accept the mission.

You are mining in a belt and when you have a full ore hold you go to warp back to the station. Aura automatically recalls your drones for you.

You are mining in hisec shooting scour diet with your T2 strips when you pop the last scordite rock. You target the plag next and you hit the fire button on your laser. Aura intervenes and gives you a dialog asking if you are sure you want to shoot the rock with the wrong crystal.

There are all kinds of stupid mistakes that I have made in EVE. Part of the fun of this game is taking consequences for our mistakes . Automatically recalling probes is simply a dumbing down of what has been a demanding game environment. If this continues, I can find other ways to waste my time and money.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE

doomshadow
Canadian Patriots
#1453 - 2013-06-02 05:51:21 UTC
I do not want to know whats in space i want to find it. That is what exploring is. I do not want to spent 5 mins chasing cans of garbage, while i get caught by someone who now can find me much easier. Banning ships from high sec sites? seriously? If you want this to be WOW, go for it! After 10 years of playing and Beta testing EVE, I am out...this is garbage...seriously.
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1454 - 2013-06-02 12:32:23 UTC
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
Slippery slope argument


I don't quite see that happening, but I do think the auto-recalling probes change is being treated far too flippantly.
Tanguy Garcin
Commonwealth-Intersolaire
K-Project
#1455 - 2013-06-02 12:46:47 UTC
Someone know if CCP's Dev answer about T3's banishment from DED 4/10 site ?

Dreaming it's a joke, cause thinking I loose millions SP to skill a now useless ship, and have to spend time in future to skill an other competitive ship for doing what i like to do in this game and so, loosing time again ... is a terribly feeling .

Why don't rebalance site ? it's already hard to run a DED site cause they are lot off other explorer in high sec, and DED site are looting worst item than 1years before.

You're aware that we are many more capsuler in this game, cause you buff up mineral in asteroid belt, but you make exploration less difficult and less rentable ??



We need more thing, more site, more space to explore ! we don't need else change ! this summer expansion is the worst i ever see in this game, cause me for the first time, to think it should be the time to close my 3 account and play an other game .

Eve is great, why searching to kill them in making them a WOW-like difficult gameplay ??
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1456 - 2013-06-03 09:49:43 UTC
It is absolutely not a joke. CCP Fozzie confirmed and explained it himself on the recent CCP streams. You can find them on CCP's twitch channel.

I agree with T3s being excluded from 3/10s, but excluding them from 4/10s is a bit much.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1457 - 2013-06-03 10:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
It is absolutely not a joke. CCP Fozzie confirmed and explained it himself on the recent CCP streams. You can find them on CCP's twitch channel.

I agree with T3s being excluded from 3/10s, but excluding them from 4/10s is a bit much.

I agree it is too much to remove them from 4/10s as well.
Its like looking at a bush that is growing wild and out of control, you have the hedge clippers in your hands and think I can trim this up and make it better (remove them from 3/10s) but instead you just cut the whole bush out (remove from 4/10s also).

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1458 - 2013-06-03 16:00:05 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Roime wrote:
You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?

It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.

Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey?


We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.


  • Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)


We're still reading up and discussing other points however.
Will the probes still auto-recall under some situations or is it an across the board change that they have to be manually recalled?

I figured this change meant it was sweeping, but I read differently just now, and I want to make sure. Please tell me it's across-the-board and that you haven't introduced magic into the game.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Hellusius
Siesta Inc.
#1459 - 2013-06-03 16:54:27 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:
This started out as an extremely snarky, unhelpful, post, but I decided I'd probably be better off making something more structured.

Auto-Recalling and Teleporting Probes.

Quote:
The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead... No more forsaken probes in space!


I'm going to attempt to sum up why I think just about everything in that quote is a terrible change.

Consequences

EVE is not a game that holds your hand, it is not a game that lets you get away with making mistakes, quite the contrary, making mistakes in EVE often results in you being beaten into the ground. EVE does not prevent you from burning out your modules when you overheat them to dangerous levels, EVE does not turn on your hardeners for you when you begin taking fire, EVE does not prevent you from jumping your Titan into the middle of hostile space instead of creating a bridge for your fleet, EVE does not teleport your drones into your drone bay should you either forget to recall them or are forced to leave without them.

You made that mistake or choice, and you live with the consequences, be it burnt out guns, a destroyed ship, billions in assets lost, or having to buy new drones.

Yet, EVE will now actively step in and prevent you from making the mistake of forgetting your probes by having them teleport into your cargo hold.

This means you will never realise 5 jumps later that you've lost all your probes and have to go buy new ones from someone who either produced them or purchased them from the Sisters of EVE (or both.) This means that you will never go into a wormhole, warp off somewhere and discover you have no probes (somehow people do this,) meaning you have to either make friends with the locals to arrange your safe departure or contact one of EVE's wormhole rescue groups.

By implementing auto-recalling probes on leaving the system, you are not only removing consequences, but removing interactions with other players.

I'm sure some people will say that it's just removing a tedious button click, but it's about as much of a tedious button click as recalling your drones or changing your ammunition to match your engagement range.

All of this can be applied to allowing your probes to expire because you weren't paying attention. Something I myself have actually done, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Immersion.

Probes have warp speeds, when they are deployed into space and sent out to scan for hostiles or signatures or what have you, we wait for them to warp into position before they begin their scan cycle. When we reposition them, we wait for them to warp to their new designated positions.

Why do we have to do this if they apparently posess the ability of teleportation? Of course the answer is that teleporting combat probes would be hidiously imbalanced, but hey, it's there, we know that they warp around. Personally after watching their little dots move around on the star map so many times, I find the teleporting probes as jarring as it would be to have my slow-ass Ogres sitting 80km away from me suddenly teleport into my drone bay because I recalled them or initiated warp. Why did I have to wait for them to fly over there in the first place?!

Forsaken Probes in space

This one isn't so much a problem so much as potential, I had an interesting, if lengthy discussion on twitter some days ago involving a number of people. One of the points raised was that unlike abandoned drones, you can't do anything with abandoned probes in your system. I'd like to see that changed.

I'd like to be able to probe down forgotten probes (or probes left behind for tactical reasons,) and recover them. Waste not, want not, after all.

Or what if I could scan down and hack into probes left in tactical positions by a hostile while he's gone and sabotage them to fly back to his ship and blow up when he reconnects to them? (That's a pie in the sky idea, it's probably not doable, but it'd be pretty damn cool.)

That got me thinking of what about active probes? What if I could probe down active probes and hack them to either shut them down or mess with a hostile probing ship's scanners who is likely sitting somewhere far off cloaked and can't be impeded otherwise.

Probes in space actually have some interesting design posibilities, and I'd hate to see them invalidated because some people find hitting a recall probes button and waiting 2~3 seconds for your probes to return and dock unbearable.

Hope this helps.


I agree. I understand you want to welcome newer players, however "learning by making mistakes" is one of EVE's magical assets in my oppinion. Not to mention it's not a drastical loss ISK wise when you do forget your probes or they expire.

Additional note to those in the quote. The probe market will change, resulting in lesser profit margins for sister probes. Therefor a lesser intrest for Sisters of EVE missions (Advised by you guys to newer players when they want to get into missioning/combat).
Zorok
The Guardian Knights
#1460 - 2013-06-03 17:05:29 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Returning to a more on-topic note.. please. Miners will continue to mine. It will just happen that the more adventurous ones will make better money (or not, if they aren't paying attention) and the lazy, fat, sloppy ones will continue to make terrible money and be cantankerous self-entitled jerks that nobody can stand to be within 3LY of.


I will probably stop mining myself. I used to ninja mine in wormholes because low-sec is too dangerous for mining in general. After this next patch, the only viable income will be from PI, Moon mining, and running missions. Trying to ninja mine in wormholes is already pretty dangerous as it is, this new patch makes the idea pure suicide.