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Miners: Why do you mine?
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Zircon Dasher
#121 - 2011-10-31 22:37:47 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
This does not take into account people enjoying the activity of mining and doing it for fun, neglecting the economically sound viewpoint entirely. .


Don't have time to go through the whole post (just skimmed it) atm- will do a more complete read later.

In regard to the part I quoted:

You decide to play a game during your leisure time.
In this game you recieve 5 monopoly monies for letting your favorite pornstar/actress/actor give you a BJ.
In this game you recieve 10 monopoly monies for letting Quasimodo sodomize you with a front-end loader.

According to the part I quoted it appears you beleive that the person who earns 5 monopoly monies is ignoring sound economic principles.

I hope a more thorough reading of you post later will put your comment into a reasonable and logical context....

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2011-10-31 22:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Zircon Dasher wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
This does not take into account people enjoying the activity of mining and doing it for fun, neglecting the economically sound viewpoint entirely. .


Don't have time to go through the whole post (just skimmed it) atm- will do a more complete read later.

In regard to the part I quoted:

You decide to play a game during your leisure time.
In this game you recieve 5 monopoly monies for letting your favorite pornstar/actress/actor give you a BJ.
In this game you recieve 10 monopoly monies for letting Quasimodo sodomize you with a front-end loader.

According to the part I quoted it appears you beleive that the person who earns 5 monopoly monies is ignoring sound economic principles.

I hope a more thorough reading of you post later will put your comment into a reasonable and logical context....



If, for some reason, the person valued monopoly money enough to take a sodomizing from Quasimodo wielding a front end loader (wouldn't it be more of a back end loader?), then yes, the economically sound viewpoint is taking the sodomizing. Unfortunately this is not a good example as you are putting two rewards in one situation, and one reward and one punishment in the other. This is also an extreme example that does not happen, as a BJ is valuable to most men and monopoly money is not. Sodomizing is also not something desired, in fact many men will expense many resources to prevent said sodomizing. By this analysis this can be accepted as an invalid argument.

A more reasonable example would be the difference between chopping down your own tree to split into firewood, which requires seasoning to dry it out, versus buying a cord of seasoned wood. That wood you chopped down has a labour cost which exceeds the amount of effort and time (double whammy) that a minimum wage paying job has in purchasing power for an equivalent cord of wood.
Suki Okiwana
Sceptical Hippo Inc.
#123 - 2011-11-01 01:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Suki Okiwana
Zircon Dasher wrote:

Quote:
You call that rational profit maximizing behaviour? Very cute.

If doing anything else resulted in negative utility, yes, I would call that rational profit maximization behaviour.


Either you just proved you don't know what the concept is or you are a complete moron who argues economic principles are invalid in EVE because everything we do there is leisure time. I am going to respond assuming the former.

Rational consumer behaviour is one of the simplifications employed by economists to model complex real world processes and relationships. It describes the expected behaviour of the average consumer: striving to maximize utility by consuming the most goods and services possible. In order to achieve that it has to maximize its income. Giving away ISK violates the assumption. The rational consumer BY DEFINITION does not do random **** like this, that's the whole point of the concept. Do you really think you can argue the validity of models that deal with global averages by pointing at one guy and saying he's nothing like that?

Zircon Dasher wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
This does not take into account people enjoying the activity of mining and doing it for fun, neglecting the economically sound viewpoint entirely. .


Don't have time to go through the whole post (just skimmed it) atm- will do a more complete read later.

In regard to the part I quoted:

You decide to play a game during your leisure time.
In this game you recieve 5 monopoly monies for letting your favorite pornstar/actress/actor give you a BJ.
In this game you recieve 10 monopoly monies for letting Quasimodo sodomize you with a front-end loader.

According to the part I quoted it appears you beleive that the person who earns 5 monopoly monies is ignoring sound economic principles.

I hope a more thorough reading of you post later will put your comment into a reasonable and logical context....


Again your example is flawed. Economic principles are derived from real world free markets, you can't force them to work in an environment that clearly does not have one. If it did prices would reflect the utility the general public attributes to the two activities. Or if you insert the game into the real world, the virtual money has no value beyond contributing to the enjoyment of winning the game. So the sound economic decision is to measure the value of winning + quality time with Quasimodo against losing + BJ from... well in your friend's case, since he seems to be so special, Quasimodo again I guess.
Ricand Michelliaos
Estrale Frontiers
#124 - 2011-11-01 05:37:57 UTC
Hi. Ricand Here.
Missioneer/miner/ Pvper/ 3 year Noob. I'm not amazing at any one thing, but I have training in most things. I've spent three years in this game, and I still don't know what I want to do. Everything is fun.

And While I admit the thread got kinda boring to read and I stopped reading about halfway through plus the last page here, I still feel like some of the Miners are kinda standoffish and mean. OP was just asking you why you like mining. It's just like asking a chef why they like to cook, or why an artist likes to paint.
There's nothing wrong with mining. I have spent time mining. I find Mining calming. Simple. Easy. There isn't the stress of having to track targets and wonder if I've got a point on me. I don't have to continuously reactivate my weapons or change my drone's targets. I didn't have to worry about locking the right enemies or accidentally killing the trigger. The biggest worry I had was Wondering if I could fit the next cycle in my cargo bay.
At the same time, I have not invested as many points in shooting rocks as I have at shooting ships. I'm not a dedicated miner and usually do it when I'm burnt out from missioning, I'm waiting for people to come online or when I have nothing else pertinent to do. Don't read that wrong. I have spent 5-6 hours in an asteroid belt, mining all of it clean. I have spent entire days with previous corps/alliances doing Mining ops, hauling and refining. I love the miners that I have met and hung out with, they've seemed like really cool people.
You guys get really deep into this game, and I'm just coyly pawing the surface. You talk about the economy and how miners are vital. I find it intriguing. With the Oxygen Isotopes fiasco going on, it's obvious you're not lying. You speak truths, all of you. But at the same time, slandering and name calling because someone doesn't agree with you on a viewpoint in a video game? Let it go mate. Have fun doing what you do.
Zircon Dasher
#125 - 2011-11-01 08:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
This is also an extreme example that does not happen....this can be accepted as an invalid argument.


It was an extreme example (sodomy by fron-end loader is p. funny though admit it), and I was really only setting up a scenario that could be readily recognized as more fun (BJ option) or less fun (sodomy option). But it is not invalid because it proves the principle. Which was all I was aiming for at this stage.

Quote:
If, for some reason, the person valued monopoly money enough to take a sodomizing from Quasimodo wielding a front end loader (wouldn't it be more of a back end loader?), then yes, the economically sound viewpoint is taking the sodomizing.


By your own admission the person who takes the 10 monopoly money option is making a statement of preference. The person is willing to give up some amount of fun (BJ) in exchange for some increased amount of monopoly money (5). Therefore we have one point along an implied indifference curve- with monopoly money on one axis and fun on the other axis. I assume that you know and agree with the connection between indifference curves, marginal utility, and profit maximization (microecon 101) so I wont go further. In other words: people who enjoy fun activities and do them precisely because they are fun are not neglecting the economically sound viewpoint as you earlier claimed.

Quote:
Time is limited in this case, as humans are mortal...... they in fact paid with their time.


I do not dispute these statemtents in relation to real life. That being said, time does funny things depending on how it is used/concieved.

First- In RL, our actions use up time and so have a cost attached to them. The cost of leisure time is time that could have been spent working/sleeping/ doing chores. Once we decide to use some of our time for leisure the RL cost is incurred regardless of the nature of leisure activity. The fact that we are mortal does not factor into any equation after this.

Second- Because the time alotted to leisure is generally fixed, the cost of one activity over another activity is enjoyment (in the broadest sense) not time.

But meh. Arguing that people do not pay with time, but rather pay with enjoyment, is not necessary to my overall argument.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2011-11-01 13:23:31 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:

etc...



None of your points in this post prove that mining your own minerals can be free and that time was free, which was your original comment.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#127 - 2011-11-01 14:35:14 UTC
with all of the discussion about MIMAF ... I'm a bit surprised that Akita hasn't stepped in and laid down the law :)

Ricand (few posts up) gets it.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Zircon Dasher
#128 - 2011-11-01 15:02:30 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:

etc...



None of your points in this post prove that mining your own minerals can be free and that time was free, which was your original comment.


They rebutted your objection regarding inefficiency.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#129 - 2011-11-01 15:14:22 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
GROW BRAINS..(no don't that might be even worse).

If nobody mined.....NO SHIPS....NO GAME.

Why should it be entertaining ?? Is ANY aspect of ANY heavy industry 'fun'? NO !

Who says everything has to be pew-pew either ??

Sometimes I wonder if people really understandhow all the pieces of this game fit together.

I really don't think they do, and your question, OP, only exposes your ignorance of MANY things.


Your WRONG; if nobody mined ore prices would only clib by 25-30% since rest of ore comes from reproccessed mission loot or refined drone alloys. They high end ores come form reprocessed high end drone alloys since u can chain drone battelships and make 80 million isk per hour by doing this!! This is why high end ore price dropped while amount eve industry went up
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2011-11-01 15:17:38 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:

etc...



None of your points in this post prove that mining your own minerals can be free and that time was free, which was your original comment.


They rebutted your objection regarding inefficiency.



Actually they didn't. In a nutshell all you said was that you were having fun and therefore you don't care, in multiple different ways.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#131 - 2011-11-01 16:40:48 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
GROW BRAINS..(no don't that might be even worse).

If nobody mined.....NO SHIPS....NO GAME.

Why should it be entertaining ?? Is ANY aspect of ANY heavy industry 'fun'? NO !

Who says everything has to be pew-pew either ??

Sometimes I wonder if people really understandhow all the pieces of this game fit together.

I really don't think they do, and your question, OP, only exposes your ignorance of MANY things.


Your WRONG; if nobody mined ore prices would only clib by 25-30% since rest of ore comes from reproccessed mission loot or refined drone alloys. They high end ores come form reprocessed high end drone alloys since u can chain drone battelships and make 80 million isk per hour by doing this!! This is why high end ore price dropped while amount eve industry went up


Will need to look into this more deeply, but IIRC the drone poo is a source of highends more than low/mid. Last time I played with the numbers, it was about 10-12% more expensive to build a ship from drone poo (based on drone poo value rather than the value of the refined minerals as compared to just buying the minerals off the market).

Highend ore might go up a little bit; but the low/mid prices will probably go up a little more than the 30%.

sure drones can be farmed extensively RIGHT NOW ... but didn't CCP mention they were lessening the refined goo or doing away with it altogether?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#132 - 2011-11-09 03:04:50 UTC
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:


Just FYI, I run 3 accounts with one Orca and two hulks and I can pull roughly 60 million an hour on Pyroxeres. I would think with 6 accounts you could do much more but the problem would most likely be finding the rocks. This is a maxed out 107m sp Orca pilot as gang leader with the implant..


No you cannot, a maxed out hulk gang boosted pulls approximately 162,000m3 per hour, which is approximately 19 million per hour, two hulks pulling in a mere 38 million an hour, far cry from 60 million an hour. I don't pull these numbers out of my ass this is according to Halada's mining guide, adding up all the bonuses plus gang links and then using http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore which has an updated view of mineral prices multiple times daily. The guide is relatively recent and miners haven't gotten any new bonuses in time anyway.

And don't forget that processing, travel and selling all chew into this value, so it's even lower than expected.

Don't make **** up.


Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I pulled 190K pyrox in one hour tonight without drones and switching belts. lol
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#133 - 2011-11-09 15:11:14 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
As a sister post to my Missioners: What is your goal? , miners, why do you do what you do?


I already posted in here before, but the true answer to WHY DO YOU MINERS MINE?????


Welp, it's so that ships can be built that allow YOU to FLY IN SPACE.

Plain and simple.

{ OP's brain goes DURRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH }

That feels much better now.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2011-11-09 20:54:21 UTC
This question gets asked so many times - yet the answer is always the same:

There are several reasons why a rational person might mine:
1) Hauling minerals from another location might be too costly/risky
2) Mining scales well with # of accounts. yes, you can make more money by running missions, but it is difficult to run 12 different missions on 12 different accounts simultaneously. However, there have been many successful multi-account mining operations carried out.
3) Mining requires very little attention, and allows you to multi-task. You can update market orders, watch a movie, babysit your kids, read a book, etc etc...
4) A person might find it rewarding to mine their own mineral and build something from start to finish. This is DIFFERENT than the irrational belief that "minerals you mine are free".
Velicitia
XS Tech
#135 - 2011-11-09 21:25:06 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
This question gets asked so many times - yet the answer is always the same:

There are several reasons why a rational person might mine:
1) Hauling minerals from another location might be too costly/risky
2) Mining scales well with # of accounts. yes, you can make more money by running missions, but it is difficult to run 12 different missions on 12 different accounts simultaneously. However, there have been many successful multi-account mining operations carried out.
3) Mining requires very little attention, and allows you to multi-task. You can update market orders, watch a movie, babysit your kids, read a book, etc etc...
4) A person might find it rewarding to mine their own mineral and build something from start to finish. This is DIFFERENT than the irrational belief that "minerals you mine are free".



1) not so much (for me anyway). the "too costly" can lead to MIMAF thinking.
2) indeed.
3) completely agree (unless you're Chribba and running 37 mining accts at once ... )
4) Sometimes it also comes down to a bit of "free" -- i.e. you're in the game anyway, and it's cheaper/easier to mine for that 10m trit than it is to buy it.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-11-13 16:35:03 UTC
I prefer gunmining. I live out in droneland so we can just shoot our way through some anomalies and out comes a battleship. To bad drones don't have bounty also.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#137 - 2011-11-20 11:10:38 UTC
I mine to build things Lol

I only sell my spare tritanium/pyerite.

I find missioning very boring, i feel like "Oh noes not this mission again".

I spend most my time managing my PIs anyway, this gives me nearly 70m isk per day.

Of course with a Tengu i'd do this in 2 hours but oh well, i can't fly it, i'm stuck with my Gila cuz i don't have skills for cruise missiles.
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#138 - 2011-11-20 11:19:07 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I pulled 190K pyrox in one hour tonight without drones and switching belts. lol


Well this is 4,2M isk and hour, i think i did better mining with my old Vexor P

I have maxed Orca and 2 hulks, and my maximum theorical isk/h is 35.7M on viscous pyro.

If you get 60M/h on pyro please let use know howLol

You need at least bistot for this income...
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#139 - 2011-11-20 11:20:04 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
I prefer gunmining. I live out in droneland so we can just shoot our way through some anomalies and out comes a battleship. To bad drones don't have bounty also.


Would love to do this but ppl holding sov there would kill me What?
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#140 - 2011-11-20 23:49:10 UTC
To be honest, missioning & fleet pvp is no different from ming rocks that pop real fast. You target, shoot, and move on to the next rock(target). Try fleet pvp in abaddon and you will realise how much similar it feels to mining ;)