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Clarification on Electus Matari actions in Federation space today

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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2013-05-08 00:18:12 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:


For those of us who were there, to do nothing would have been equally disrespectful to her memory.


You remember what she did concerning Karishal Muritor, right ?
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#22 - 2013-05-08 00:33:31 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:


For those of us who were there, to do nothing would have been equally disrespectful to her memory.


You remember what she did concerning Karishal Muritor, right ?


I'm pretty sure it didnt include standing by and watching while her boss, friends, and relatives engaged in a battle all around her.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2013-05-08 00:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#24 - 2013-05-08 00:40:26 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process.


I would have abandoned the fleet.

I will not abandon my boss, friends, and relatives.

You seem to be confused. My friends, boss, and relatives werent on Naglfars.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Alexis Valentyne
Anacorn Contracts Agency
#25 - 2013-05-08 00:59:19 UTC
I would like to ask Elsebeth if, in hindsight, she would have done anything differently?

Further to this, if you are put in a similar situation in the future, would you repeat your actions in the name of your kin?

I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-08 01:19:12 UTC
I respect your honesty and humility, but I simply cannot accept "just following orders" as a valid excuse.

Many men and women throughout history who were "just following orders" have committed atrocities that cannot even be described with words alone.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#27 - 2013-05-08 01:41:35 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Today at about 16:00 I and some other known loyalists received a request from the Republic Fleet to assist in an operation to forcibly extradite the shooter of Karin Midular from Federation care. The leader of the operation was given as General Aruko Aruman of the Republic Fleet; point of contact was Heder Elislar. I stated my opinion that I thought the operation was madness and that the Fleet should stand down, but under what for me counts as orders gathered a patrol force to support.

I was at no point given further intel about the exact plans of the Fleet. I went into Bei with the goal of coming out of this without having to engage and without betraying my oath to the Minmatar Republic. I failed in the first.

At about 20:00 local a Republic Fleet capital wing entered Colelie and demanded passage further. Federation Navy capital wing denied. Words were exchanged. Both in public and in private I and others from Electus Matari pleaded for the Republic Fleet to stand down, but this was in vain. When the Republic Fleet engaged, I was told by the officers in charge of the capitals that this was under orders "from the top".

Being an oath-bound warrior of the Republic I could personally see no other option than to follow the Fleet. I did not agree with the order and I agree with our current leadership even less, but to refuse simply because I found the order disagreeable would have gone against everything I have spoken for during my career in space.

I gave the order to the EM fleet to engage; the pilots with me should not be blamed.

We lost.

To whom it may concern: Electus Matari does not agree with this course of action. This is not the way to treat our allies. This is not the way to win the war with the real enemy. This is not the way to honor the legacy of the Ray. We followed our leaders now, but we warn you to remember that you can only lead free people to where they are willing to follow. The Matari people in space have always been divided into two: those who cherish war for the sake of honor and emotion, and those who rather avoid it for the sake of long-turn survival of our people. When the Ray was in charge, she managed to balance the two for a long time. The "Sanmatar" now needs to do the same.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Director, Gradient
Diplomat, Electus Matari

So basicly what you're saying is, it was wrong, we knew it was wrong, but we were just following orders. How very convenient. You have spilled free blood Tribal. Own it.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#28 - 2013-05-08 01:59:07 UTC
"Just following orders" carries an unfortunate dichotomy.

On the one hand, it is sometimes used to try and absolve people of wrongdoing when atrocities are committed, but on the other hand, without scores of people who just follow orders, no military can function.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#29 - 2013-05-08 03:43:46 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process.


You seem to be confused.


If there is anyone "confused" by all of this, it is the Sebiestor dolls who, apparently about as aware of their own Tribe's actual history now as in past years, chose to honor this particular witch in this particular way. What could possibly be more inappropriate? It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#30 - 2013-05-08 03:59:22 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.


Like yourself.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#31 - 2013-05-08 04:16:22 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.


Like yourself.


Indeed. I am an expert on the subject. Idiot.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#32 - 2013-05-08 04:59:24 UTC
Answers to some questions and concerns:

1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you

2) If I could do it over again, I would make the same choice. I think the decision to cross the border with force was dead wrong, but for me, personally, to bail out at the first unpleasant order I disagree with would make the above oath completely meaningless.

3) I called myself 'an oath-sworn warrior'. Others used the world soldier, which is indeed a misnomer. I am not part of the military, I am an indie capsuleer. I could have refused without facing court-martial and I was under no personal duress of any kind.

4) I wish I could say this was definitely the last time you will see Electus Matari forces on a similar operation. I cannot, however. Not only can I not guarantee we will not be there if the Republic leadership decides to continue this madness, but also what has been started now has a chance to escalate so that we will in reality not have a choice.

I am sorry I cannot be more reassuring.

Elsebeth
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#33 - 2013-05-08 05:52:49 UTC
It is still better to be honest and up-front about it now, than to attempt to backpedal later like many others would do in order to avoid accountability for their words and actions.

You have my respect and thanks for the way you have handled the aftermath of today's events, more readily than I would have expected, had one suggested this would be the outcome.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2013-05-08 06:28:30 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Can you imagine being a fly on the wall of the Imperial Court today?


There are no flies in the Imperial Court.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Laerise
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-05-08 07:12:00 UTC
So Electus Matari aided the republic fleet in a heinous act of terrorism against a foreign nation?

Considering their long history of supporting radical elements in the so called "republic" I'm not really surprised...
Amseln deBrabant
Ochsenbruegger
#36 - 2013-05-08 07:16:24 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Answers to some questions and concerns:

1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you

2) If I could do it over again, I would make the same choice. I think the decision to cross the border with force was dead wrong, but for me, personally, to bail out at the first unpleasant order I disagree with would make the above oath completely meaningless.

3) I called myself 'an oath-sworn warrior'. Others used the world soldier, which is indeed a misnomer. I am not part of the military, I am an indie capsuleer. I could have refused without facing court-martial and I was under no personal duress of any kind.

4) I wish I could say this was definitely the last time you will see Electus Matari forces on a similar operation. I cannot, however. Not only can I not guarantee we will not be there if the Republic leadership decides to continue this madness, but also what has been started now has a chance to escalate so that we will in reality not have a choice.

I am sorry I cannot be more reassuring.

Elsebeth


i respect your actions and i agree that the choice you made was the only way you could handle this. I did the same in defending my Navy and shooting at the Naglfars.

And i must say, despite your action today, there will be a tommorow and i truly wish to have the opportunity to fight under such a commander like you are.

When the slavers will take any actions against your people, call on me if you wish, and i will come to help you as best as i can to blow Amar ships to pieces.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-05-08 08:59:42 UTC
There is no question of it; the Republic has shown it's ugliness.

Yet, in these troubled times, you portray a prettier facet of your nation, Elsebeth.

Thank-you.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Vinh Trahn
Seven Stars Search and Rescue
#38 - 2013-05-08 10:25:00 UTC
Last night I joined the Electus Matari fleet into Colelie under the command of Elsebeth Rhiannon.

I joined the fleet as a member of the Republic
I joined the fleet as a tribesman.
I joined the fleet of my own free will, something I value dearly.

I understand that I irreversibly tied my name and through proxy that of the corporation I represent to these events.

My actions were my own and I understand I am accountable for blood spilled, lives lost, and crew rescued alike.

I would like to point out that what I did was not done out of hatred or malice towards the Federation, to it's Navy and it's people. I set out to support the Republic, and that is what I did.

Fear not this night. You will not go astray. Though shadows fall still the stars find their way.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2013-05-08 10:43:07 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process.


I would have abandoned the fleet.

I will not abandon my boss, friends, and relatives.

You seem to be confused. My friends, boss, and relatives werent on Naglfars.


I am not especially blaming you for what you did...
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#40 - 2013-05-08 11:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kade Jeekin
If anyone got in the way of vengeance against one who has murdered my family they would be treated in like fashion.

And for you who harp on about how Karin Midular worked for peace with the Amarr and Ammatar and tried to institute a Gallente-style democracy in the Republic - remember where that got her and the Republic.

She'd had her eyes opened since then.

Electus Matari - fly free