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The Battle of Colelie
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Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#81 - 2013-05-19 23:52:25 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.


The problem isn't the generosity and benevolence. The problem is the condescending, patronizing attitude that tends to build up among those being generous and benevolent. We're not the Federation's children to be talked down to when they don't like our ways or methods. We don't owe them perfect obedience just because they've helped us out. We do not belong to the Federation.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#82 - 2013-05-20 00:05:52 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:

The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."

If it was real invasion, they would not jump 15 dred into Colleile, they would be alot more tactical, hit and run, cut supply lines etc.

This battle was ceremonial, for honor and to make a statement.

The Naglfar crews knew they were in inferior tactical position. They did not expect to win.

They martyr themselves, as Ray of Matar fedayeen.

And the Gallente go "duh why did they invade us."

This was not a hostile act, from certain point of view within the tribes. The "moderm" factions in the Republic will be horrified, but the traditionalists will say "It's just a ceremony, it needed to be done for honor."

It's just part of the old ways, that many won't understand.


I see myself as a traditionalist, but I don't agree with this being simply ceremony. There was nothing honorable about what I saw in Colelie.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#83 - 2013-05-20 00:22:32 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.


The problem isn't the generosity and benevolence. The problem is the condescending, patronizing attitude that tends to build up among those being generous and benevolent. We're not the Federation's children to be talked down to when they don't like our ways or methods. We don't owe them perfect obedience just because they've helped us out. We do not belong to the Federation.


^^Thisthisthisthisthis.^^

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#84 - 2013-05-20 02:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Cipher7 wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:


They didn't get the shooter.

How did they accomplish their purpose?


They came to make a statement, and they made it.



That they don't give a damn about the way their allies conduct their business?

That they have no problems breaking CONCORD law, risking their alliance and murdering thousands of men and women and throwing sending twice as many to their deaths, because they won't get their way when others than themselves are in the right?

That they're incompetent and have no idea how to conduct capital warfare?


Which statement did they make?


Katarina Musana wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.


The problem isn't the generosity and benevolence. The problem is the condescending, patronizing attitude that tends to build up among those being generous and benevolent.


Both sides are condescending and patronising to the other, neither side has the right to point fingers and make complaints there. Surely it'd be better if you both, instead of applying the sarcasm and downtalk to one another, promote a sense of understanding with some patience, hmm?


If you don't want to be treated like children, perhaps you should look to your own conduct when you don't get your way. You're right, you don't belong to them, but they're not obliged to agree to your every demand just because they're in the mentality to offer help and aid.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-05-20 02:51:47 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
This is some of the most ludicrous drivel I've ever read. It's obvious that, while you sit there in your armchair complaining that the Federation (not the Gallente, but the Federation, let's be precise here) doesn't understand the Republic, that you show a failure to understand the Federation that is equally as great.

If this was not a hostile act, then what was it? If it was not an invasion in miniature, then what was it? A statement? That's the excuse that terrorists always trot out to justify their acts. Is that how the Federation should view this? Are you sure that's what you want? The Federation doesn't exactly have the best record of responding proportionally to acts of terrorism - I mean to violence for symbolic purposes.

How should the Federation respond to this? I'm curious to know what you think. Now that the Republic has "made a statement", how should the Federation respond? To the tens of thousands of Federation citizens killed in the attack? How should the families of those citizens respond? How should their friends respond?

If you're suggesting the Republic wanted to make a statement, I'd say that they were successful. However, I don't thin that statement meant what they thought it meant.

Cipher, I would like to meet you some day. I would like to sit you down, and buy you a drink, and tell you a story about a friend of mine who was killed at Colelie. Then I would like to slap your face and never speak to you again. I'm sure you understand, I merely want to make a statement.


Our culture is rather fragmented, customs vary from tribe to tribe, clan to clan. I don't think any one person knows all of it.

I do know that mock battles are fairly common during disputes.

One village will send warriors to another village and call them out, then they will have a battle that feels pretty real, but nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the chiefs sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the chiefs come to an agreement on their dispute.

Now imagine there is a Gallente village, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.

In my opinion that is essentially what happened in Coleile.

How should the Federation respond.

If the Federation is smart, they'll see it within its cultural context for what it is, and understand that mistakes were made on both sides.

If they're dumb, they'll view it from their own ethnocentric angle, get pushy and end up losing an ally.

On the Republic side, I know there's alot of arguing in the top brass.

I just hope it doesn't endanger my R&D with Duvolle and Creodron, or my security gig with Transstellar Shipping.

I'll be happy to have that drink but if you slap me I'll knock you into next week.

k bye
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-05-20 03:06:11 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

That they don't give a damn about the way their allies conduct their business?

That they have no problems breaking CONCORD law, risking their alliance and murdering thousands of men and women and throwing sending twice as many to their deaths, because they won't get their way when others than themselves are in the right?

That they're incompetent and have no idea how to conduct capital warfare?

Which statement did they make?


That some things are worth dying for.

That ally is not a synonym for lapdog.

That we handle our business.

You didn't see warfare yet. If you see warfare, your stations will be wreckage before your fleet can respond.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2013-05-20 03:08:56 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:

I see myself as a traditionalist, but I don't agree with this being simply ceremony. There was nothing honorable about what I saw in Colelie.


I think it was honorable, but I think such gesture is wasted on the Federation.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-05-20 04:37:02 UTC
Interesting definition of honourable you have there sir.
I would consider shooting at the only friends you have to be a rather idiotic move myself. I'm not saying stop, far from it. Keep going and the war will be over that much sooner.
You won't win though.

I find it interesting that no one has tried to shut you up yet, they probably should.
Your speeches are a propaganda gold mine for the imperial press office.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#89 - 2013-05-20 06:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rioghal Morgan
Cipher7 wrote:


Our culture is rather fragmented, customs vary from tribe to tribe, clan to clan. I don't think any one person knows all of it.

I do know that mock battles are fairly common during disputes.

One village will send warriors to another village and call them out, then they will have a battle that feels pretty real, but nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the chiefs sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the chiefs come to an agreement on their dispute.

Now imagine there is a Gallente village, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.

In my opinion that is essentially what happened in Coleile.

How should the Federation respond.

If the Federation is smart, they'll see it within its cultural context for what it is, and understand that mistakes were made on both sides.

If they're dumb, they'll view it from their own ethnocentric angle, get pushy and end up losing an ally.

On the Republic side, I know there's alot of arguing in the top brass.

I just hope it doesn't endanger my R&D with Duvolle and Creodron, or my security gor what it isig with Transstellar Shipping.

I'll be happy to have that drink but if you slap me I'll knock you into next week.

k bye


Let me get this straight, you expect the Federation to "see it within the cultural context for what it is" but can't see what the Gallente (and every other people in New Eden as well) would see it as? The Coleile incident was nothing less than mass murder committed by one ally upon another. If the alliance breaks or disintegrates into outright war it will be on the Republic's head and no one else. If you keep pushing the Federation, no one will come to your aid when the Golden Fleet returns.

I don't deny that the Federation has made mistakes here but the violation of Federal sovereignty and the murder of thousands of people makes the Federal mistakes pale by comparison.

This idea that the Federation see the Republic as some sort of pet is beyond ridiculous as well.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2013-05-20 10:03:03 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
This is some of the most ludicrous drivel I've ever read. It's obvious that, while you sit there in your armchair complaining that the Federation (not the Gallente, but the Federation, let's be precise here) doesn't understand the Republic, that you show a failure to understand the Federation that is equally as great.

If this was not a hostile act, then what was it? If it was not an invasion in miniature, then what was it? A statement? That's the excuse that terrorists always trot out to justify their acts. Is that how the Federation should view this? Are you sure that's what you want? The Federation doesn't exactly have the best record of responding proportionally to acts of terrorism - I mean to violence for symbolic purposes.

How should the Federation respond to this? I'm curious to know what you think. Now that the Republic has "made a statement", how should the Federation respond? To the tens of thousands of Federation citizens killed in the attack? How should the families of those citizens respond? How should their friends respond?

If you're suggesting the Republic wanted to make a statement, I'd say that they were successful. However, I don't thin that statement meant what they thought it meant.

Cipher, I would like to meet you some day. I would like to sit you down, and buy you a drink, and tell you a story about a friend of mine who was killed at Colelie. Then I would like to slap your face and never speak to you again. I'm sure you understand, I merely want to make a statement.


Our culture is rather fragmented, customs vary from tribe to tribe, clan to clan. I don't think any one person knows all of it.

I do know that mock battles are fairly common during disputes.

One village will send warriors to another village and call them out, then they will have a battle that feels pretty real, but nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the chiefs sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the chiefs come to an agreement on their dispute.

Now imagine there is a Gallente village, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.

In my opinion that is essentially what happened in Coleile.

How should the Federation respond.

If the Federation is smart, they'll see it within its cultural context for what it is, and understand that mistakes were made on both sides.

If they're dumb, they'll view it from their own ethnocentric angle, get pushy and end up losing an ally.

On the Republic side, I know there's alot of arguing in the top brass.

I just hope it doesn't endanger my R&D with Duvolle and Creodron, or my security gig with Transstellar Shipping.

I'll be happy to have that drink but if you slap me I'll knock you into next week.

k bye


That is an interesting point of view, actually. One I have not considered yet.

However, I do know that legal disputes are fairly common during disputes in the Federation.

One Federal State will send envoys and lawyers to another Federal State and call them out, then they will face trials and lawsuits, and nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the leaders sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the leaders come to an agreement on their dispute.

Now imagine there is a Minmatar State, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.

It mostly depends of the light it is presented in. In yours, federal leaders are shown negatively, in mine, it is the contrary.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#91 - 2013-05-20 11:48:01 UTC
While symbolic battles indeed do happen in parts of the Republic, I think we have to give our Fleet and leaders a little more credit than assuming they'd not realize such a party would not get the response it receives in the Federation. After all, we have been Federation allies for long, and if something is integral to the culture of the Republic (not Minmatar, but the alliance of multiple tribes that is the Republic), it is the ability to understand and negotiate in the web of differing customs.

The Fleet would not simply barge into Colelie following one symbolic battle custom from gods know what part of which planet, and expect to be treated in the appropriate response. They would contact the opposition first and ask whether such a custom would also be acceptable to them.

We are not barbarians. We can talk about such things. We can negotiate for a mutually acceptable solution when customs differ. Every clan chief worth the air they breath knows how to do that with neighboring clans. The Republic has managed to do so between tribes for over a century. We have even now offered to negotiate about jurisdiction with the Federation.

Elsebeth
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-05-20 12:11:40 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
While symbolic battles indeed do happen in parts of the Republic, I think we have to give our Fleet and leaders a little more credit than assuming they'd not realize such a party would not get the response it receives in the Federation. After all, we have been Federation allies for long, and if something is integral to the culture of the Republic (not Minmatar, but the alliance of multiple tribes that is the Republic), it is the ability to understand and negotiate in the web of differing customs.

The Fleet would not simply barge into Colelie following one symbolic battle custom from gods know what part of which planet, and expect to be treated in the appropriate response. They would contact the opposition first and ask whether such a custom would also be acceptable to them.

We are not barbarians. We can talk about such things. We can negotiate for a mutually acceptable solution when customs differ. Every clan chief worth the air they breath knows how to do that with neighboring clans. The Republic has managed to do so between tribes for over a century. We have even now offered to negotiate about jurisdiction with the Federation.

Elsebeth


But that is EXACTLY what the republic failed to do. You (the Republic) didn't negotiate with the Feds, you just said "Gimme" and when you were met with "no", you promptly displayed behaviour that the parents of all children know all too well. That is, the temper tantrum. Except you didn't bellow "I'm going to scream until I'm sick!" Or stamp your feet or slam doors or wail and scream. You dispatched a dreadnought fleet against the sovereign space of your oldest ally.

The republic failed to negotiate or arrange a compromise, otherwise those Dreadnoughts would have been dispatched quite some time later. But what do I know about these things.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2013-05-20 13:02:30 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Interesting definition of honourable you have there sir.
I would consider shooting at the only friends you have to be a rather idiotic move myself. I'm not saying stop, far from it. Keep going and the war will be over that much sooner.
You won't win though.

I find it interesting that no one has tried to shut you up yet, they probably should.
Your speeches are a propaganda gold mine for the imperial press office.


Allies deserve straight talk.

We are not imperials who talk thru both sides of our mouth "buhu sorry about the attack" while planning the next one.

Either we'll honorably bang out a concensus with the Gallente or honorably disassociate ourselves from them.

No spin, no doubletalk.

Haha imperial press. Your own people don't even read that schit.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2013-05-20 13:39:11 UTC
You're the ones who shot up your allies, not us.
We may have disagreements with our State brothers now and again but we haven't shot them yet.
We're also not the ones who broke the Yulai agreements before diving behind the skirts of Concord when it went badly for you.
I don't think you could get any more dishonourable if you tried.

And by all means, honourably disassociate yourself from the Gallente, I'm not stopping you. Just keep in mind that they may not be so kindly inclined to assist you when our golden fleet comes knocking.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#95 - 2013-05-20 13:40:50 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
[
Either we'll honorably bang out a concensus with the Gallente...


Would that be a 6x2500mm bang or a 4x3500mm one?

Just wondering, as a couple posts ago you mentioned throwing a task force into gallente space and firing at them as 'honourable'. I believe 'concensus' here is the odd one out.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-05-20 13:52:49 UTC
Rioghal Morgan wrote:

Let me get this straight, you expect the Federation to "see it within the cultural context for what it is" but can't see what the Gallente (and every other people in New Eden as well) would see it as? The Coleile incident was nothing less than mass murder committed by one ally upon another. If the alliance breaks or disintegrates into outright war it will be on the Republic's head and no one else. If you keep pushing the Federation, no one will come to your aid when the Golden Fleet returns.

I don't deny that the Federation has made mistakes here but the violation of Federal sovereignty and the murder of thousands of people makes the Federal mistakes pale by comparison.

This idea that the Federation see the Republic as some sort of pet is beyond ridiculous as well.


Three weeks.

Over 3 weeks since the shooting and we STILL have no access to the shooter, no access to raw intel, no access to anything.

What the hell kind of alliance is this?

Are we junkyard hounds only to use during hostilities, but show no consideration otherwise?

Your president needs to start acting like a friend, and he better start real soon.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2013-05-20 13:59:00 UTC
Considering you actively engaged federal units in hostilities... He doesn't really have any reason to treat you like a friend at this point. You shot at his ships and you're surprised he offers you no intel

Also Sebiestor tribesmen are present at the trial as observers so you do have acess to the shooter... You just can't hand him over to a lynch mob is all.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2013-05-20 14:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
You're the ones who shot up your allies, not us.
We may have disagreements with our State brothers now and again but we haven't shot them yet.
We're also not the ones who broke the Yulai agreements before diving behind the skirts of Concord when it went badly for you.
I don't think you could get any more dishonourable if you tried.

And by all means, honourably disassociate yourself from the Gallente, I'm not stopping you. Just keep in mind that they may not be so kindly inclined to assist you when our golden fleet comes knocking.


lol @ "state brothers"

Yulai, I assume you refer to the elder fleet raids.

Asymmetric warfare isn't dishonorable, it's practical and extremely effective.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-05-20 14:22:45 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Considering you actively engaged federal units in hostilities... He doesn't really have any reason to treat you like a friend at this point. You shot at his ships and you're surprised he offers you no intel

Also Sebiestor tribesmen are present at the trial as observers so you do have acess to the shooter... You just can't hand him over to a lynch mob is all.


It was 3 weeks /before/ the Coleile incident.

3 weeks of no consideration, no cooperation, no communication.

There is no "lynch mob" we have our own interrogators and investigators, who could do a better job of extracting information out of the shooter.

Now he gets to sit in a cushy federal prison and exercise his "rights" to not tell anybody anything.

Bravo.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-05-20 14:37:17 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:
[
Either we'll honorably bang out a concensus with the Gallente...


Would that be a 6x2500mm bang or a 4x3500mm one?

Just wondering, as a couple posts ago you mentioned throwing a task force into gallente space and firing at them as 'honourable'. I believe 'concensus' here is the odd one out.


Facing certain death and holding your ground?

I think that's pretty honorable.