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DX 11 in Odyssey?
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#21 - 2013-05-07 17:27:13 UTC
Angie Akachi wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Note: I haven't run XP for a loooong time. Too many programs I use won't run on it as it is so out of date.


Really?
What "Programs" are u talking about, that only run under Vista/Win7/Win8 or do u mean "Apps" for Win8 metro thinggy?


I'm also interested in what actual DX11 features EvE could use, except for the sleeker more faster API calls.

I guess tessellation maybe, but this also works to some degree under DX9.

I work with, in part, some fairly sophisticated control software that needs custom programming. Many of the apps to work with those control systems require at least Windows 7 to function properly.

Additionally, running Windows XP is forbidden at the University where I work due to some rather extreme security issues that XP is prone to. Occasionally for some of our older equipment it would be handy to have an XP based system around to run now out of date software on to interface with them... which draws a lot of laughter and a firm "NO" from the Desktop Support and Networking departments.

Yes, XP was wonderful (comparatively) in it's day. Currently, however, it is sadly lacking as far as supporting modern technologies and is very, very insecure. It's still useful for those that don't do anything of an overly serious nature with their machines (read getting full benefit from modern hardware and software), but the scope of it's usefullness is dwindling daily. Now that it is no longer officially supported, that situation will deteriorate at an ever increasing pace.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Dheeradj Nurgle
Hoover Inc.
Snuffed Out
#22 - 2013-05-07 17:28:58 UTC
Blame XP, Damn, that dino should just die already.
C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-05-07 17:39:34 UTC
If the graphics will stay the same no one will have the need to upgrade their cards and CCP will never be able to upgrade the game both in graphics and physics. Instead of an instant dx11 ugrade they try to encourage ppl step by step. I played the game on almost minimal graphical settings and the new warp effect was the reason I upgraded my computer. I'm sure many people will feel the same with optional dx11 effects.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-07 18:20:06 UTC
When the time comes. All they have to do is make dx11 an optional executable. Everyone's happy. Tesselation in space would be a site to see.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
AbhChallenger
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-05-07 18:37:30 UTC
Untanas Volmyr wrote:
When the time comes. All they have to do is make dx11 an optional executable. Everyone's happy. Tesselation in space would be a site to see.



That works in World of Warcraft. NOT in EVE. Supporting two graphics pipelines requires more staff. As otherwise you end up spending valuable dev time trying to figure out why some feature works in DX9 but not DX11 or vise versa. Such issues can affect the sandbox.

Not everything in gaming can be a checkbox. WoW gets away with it because that game brings in brazillions of dollars.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-05-07 18:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
EDITED- Already posted, nm.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#27 - 2013-05-07 18:45:56 UTC
So i keep reading about CCP changing the lightning-system of our beloved Eve in the next expansion. I would appreciate more details on that. But: If they are creating a new lighting-system still running on DX9... meh. I don't hope they do.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2013-05-07 18:53:09 UTC
the only one slowing down the game are people with low end PCs, upgrading to new technic is never a disadvantage

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#29 - 2013-05-07 18:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
The only places that XP belongs these days is in a virtual machine, embedded systems (most of the DIY checkouts in supermarkets run XP, when they work that is) or on low end laptops and netbooks, it's a 12 year old operating system and doesn't support a lot of the hardware that has become commonplace in the last 5 years, it also has some serious security issues that go back years.

DX11 would be nice, but while people are still running an OS that is over a decade old, it's not going to happen.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tony Asanari
#30 - 2013-05-07 19:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tony Asanari
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:
So i keep reading about CCP changing the lightning-system of our beloved Eve in the next expansion. I would appreciate more details on that. But: If they are creating a new lighting-system still running on DX9... meh. I don't hope they do.


While sure DX11 is nice and shiny, the "main" features are mainly related to tessellation and geometry shaders. Most other graphic subsystem are just easier to maintain/program and run faster.

So far i don't know any game "lighting" system that wont run on DX9. The most common currently used lighting system is basically what Crysis 2 was using and u can compare there Dx9 vs Dx11 like here: Crysis 2 dx9 vs dx11

So yes DX11 has advantages in regards to geometry deformations and post processing, but nothing spectacular is missing that cant be also done in Dx9.
Ofc just switching to Dx11 and getting rid of the Dx9 code, might be more economical in regards to coding hassles and maintaining it.

bye Tony
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-05-07 19:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Untanas Volmyr
AbhChallenger wrote:
Untanas Volmyr wrote:
When the time comes. All they have to do is make dx11 an optional executable. Everyone's happy. Tesselation in space would be a site to see.



That works in World of Warcraft. NOT in EVE. Supporting two graphics pipelines requires more staff. As otherwise you end up spending valuable dev time trying to figure out why some feature works in DX9 but not DX11 or vise versa. Such issues can affect the sandbox.

Not everything in gaming can be a checkbox. WoW gets away with it because that game brings in brazillions of dollars.


What's a world of Warcraft? It worked in Age of Conan. And a few other titles if you bother to check directories. Yes it takes loads of dev time. So what can you do.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-05-07 19:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
When it's a choice between having what are already pretty good graphics and making the game unplayable for a large number of people (and not necessarily just those people running XP) then the answer is quite obviously "no you aren't getting your tesselation, now get over it."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-05-07 19:26:01 UTC
People are forgetting that it's not enough to just have an OS that supports DX 11. Your graphics card has to support it as well. Many, many EVE players have graphics cards that don't support DX 11. I don't. Don't ******* force me to buy another computer (can't change graphics card on this computer) just so I can keep playing EVE.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
AbhChallenger
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-05-07 19:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: AbhChallenger
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
When it's a choice between having what are already pretty good graphics and making the game unplayable for a large number of people (and not necessarily just those people running XP) then the answer is quite obviously "no you aren't getting your tesselation, now get over it."


Except it is pretty much Windows XP holding it back at this point. Onboard graphics have had DX11 support for some time and the low, mid, and high end is saturated with DX11 hardware.

So the question is how many of those "large amount of people" will quit EVE instead of upgrading? And what graphical features and efficiencies will convince a majority of those to stay?

And then the question becomes. At what point where new players who are drawn in by EVE joining the DX11 party outnumber those who think hardware not designed for anything more than facebook and Youtube from close to a decade ago must be supported forever?

If I had to decide.

#1 It is a simple switch to DX11 merely for the efficiency and ease of code then no. Now is not the time.
#2 If it is a proper Switch to DX11 with a large amount of Game assets getting DX11 features that will make other games blush with envy then I say yes now is the time to leave DX9.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
People are forgetting that it's not enough to just have an OS that supports DX 11. Your graphics card has to support it as well. Many, many EVE players have graphics cards that don't support DX 11. I don't. Don't ******* force me to buy another computer (can't change graphics card on this computer) just so I can keep playing EVE.


Nvidia had DX11 hardware in 2010
AMD had DX11 hardware in 2009

It is now May 2013. It is likely to be next year before CCP would even announce a switch to DX11. (A good time with XP finally being dropped by Microsoft)
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-05-07 19:53:57 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
personally I find it sort of ridiculous that we are still being dragged down by XP, I admit it was one of the best OS ever made, but now a days windows 7 works just as good if not way better, and a DX11 card is worth what? 50$. last I hear only 5% of the people is sticking to XP on eve.

maybe CCP could risk sacrifying those and in return become more modern and get a new influx of players that have been put off due to performance and shiny issues, lets admit it... EVE runs on a DX engine that is stone age old by now...


I agree, I spend lots of monies keeping my PC up to date. Why must I be suffer because James over there won't leave the refrigerator box he's opted to live in? Evil

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Stan'din
Pandemic Alpha
#36 - 2013-05-07 20:03:42 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Adela Talvanen wrote:
I recall during the FF recorded coverage that in the Animation Q&A one of the devs mentioned somethig along he lines that the next expansion will be having DX 11 features.

I might have miss heard, or CCP is finally moving from DX 9 graphics.

That doesn't sound right, as our Win XP users would have issues.



**** windows Xp users

Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican.
AbhChallenger
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-05-07 20:07:30 UTC
CCP has already shown they are fully willing to abandon older hardware. Even on extremely short notice.

I note two times in particular. The first when they implemented software PhysX for clothing and hair into EVE. If I remember correctly bad luck had it that Nvidia made a change that made a wide away of older but previously useable CPUs unable to run EVE. I think people had less of a month warning on that one.

Then the change in shader model that left first generation atom onboard graphics unable to run EVE. That was quite controversial if I remember but there was more warning beforehand.

Point is EVE is still a 3D game and not Microsoft Office. At a certain point it becomes the better decision to say no to older hardware and software.

When you purchase a laptop or all in one PC or anything that limits your ability to upgrade you run the risk of the complete system becoming utterly obsolete and the year for DX9 or DX10 is 2014. As once XP is out of the support picture the floodgates of DX11 will open.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-05-07 20:13:05 UTC
Dx9 has come a long way. So I wouldn't be to worried about what you are missing when it comes to the big switch anyway. Regardless of dx version. OpenGL upgrades seem to be adaptable between dx versions. I haven't checked that info for a while. Ambient occlusion was also not a dx9 feature for a while. Double check that info my phone is slow.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#39 - 2013-05-07 20:19:14 UTC
AbhChallenger wrote:
Windows XP WAS an amazing OS. Well ahead of it's time and it's stability was what propelled entire industries forward.

However recently it is doing little more than slowing everything down.


The issue is more to do with the fact that for hardware such as sound and graphics XP and modern windows systems are completely different. Forcing drivers to be written for those who simply refuse to upgrade. When XP support is fully dropped next year it will mean that there will only ONE overall driver system that has to be supported and that ought to do a great deal to improve PC gaming.

For DX11 it get's complicated. WoW has had a DX11 rendering system for years now. Simply because it is faster. For EVE however an issue caused by supporting two graphics systems can affect the sandbox for a time. An example can be looked at as the update that caused first generation Intel Atom based netbooks to be unable to open EVE. At first it did not seem like much but many were using the inexpensive hardware to do EVE activities at work.

The point I am trying to say is that when the time for DX11 comes.. It needs to be a complete switch in my opinion. And the timing of such is crucial. People are going to have to buy new laptops (desktops can be upgraded with a 20-40 USD card for DX11 these days) And doing it to speed things up like WoW will not convince them of the worth. it has to involve massive visual improvements in my opinion.

Trendon Evenstar wrote:
Stop adding things that make large fleet fights lag thanks


Please educate yourself about the difference between Direct X 9 and Direct X 11.


Funny you should mention WoW repeatedly. I'm not sure if you did it because there is a stigma about that gam on these forums, or if you did it because WoW used to have worse graphics than Eve, but now blows it out of the water in the grafix department.

IMHO the real thing that holds eve back is the amount of multiboxing people do. Its much harder to run multiple clients of a GPU hog.

I was just going over my system usage as I played the other day thinking to my self, wow, they've come a long way since 100% usage of CPU and GPU directly after CQ was released. Hats off to the devs, seriously.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ken 1138
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-05-07 20:21:25 UTC
I'm curious about this too. Could we get a Dev answer?