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New EVE Launcher in testing on Singularity

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Author
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-05-16 13:40:17 UTC
Apologies, I posted this already in the other thread in the general testserver feedback forum, seen this one too late:

Linux 3.5.0, Wine 1.5.29

I can't see a way to login from the New Launcher, http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05162013-015644pm.php

Logfile: http://paste.debian.net/4527/
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2013-05-16 14:45:11 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Apologies, I posted this already in the other thread in the general testserver feedback forum, seen this one too late:

Linux 3.5.0, Wine 1.5.29

I can't see a way to login from the New Launcher, http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05162013-015644pm.php

Logfile: http://paste.debian.net/4527/


Try clearing the browser cache folder in the launcher directory. If that doesn't help then I am a bit at a loss, the log files look good though.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#43 - 2013-05-16 14:48:11 UTC
worked good so far but i somehow do not like having the launch button on the left site. I think mirroring the launcher layout would create a more intuitive setup.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-05-16 14:59:10 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Apologies, I posted this already in the other thread in the general testserver feedback forum, seen this one too late:

Linux 3.5.0, Wine 1.5.29

I can't see a way to login from the New Launcher, http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05162013-015644pm.php

Logfile: http://paste.debian.net/4527/


Try clearing the browser cache folder in the launcher directory. If that doesn't help then I am a bit at a loss, the log files look good though.


Same result :( What is supposed to be displayed in that part of the launcher?
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2013-05-16 15:51:18 UTC
If you're able to login, it should show you the EULA.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-05-16 16:10:15 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
If you're able to login, it should show you the EULA.


Well, the lack of a login button makes that part rather difficult ;-)
Karti Aivo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-05-17 14:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Karti Aivo
CCP Aporia wrote:
And about the cpu usage, I'll increase the sleep duration in each thread but there might be something else going wrong since none of the threads should run at more than 100 Hz and that should rarely, if ever, cause enough load for 100% CPU usage on a single core given the amount of work that is actually being done by the launcher.


I really hope this get fixed before this launcher is shipped, or at least theres an option for the old launcher then since that one is working pretty fine.


On a sidenote i cant really get why you would build a LAUNCHER that consumes more ressources than the actual game itself on min. settings.
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2013-05-17 14:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Aporia
Karti Aivo wrote:
CCP Aporia wrote:
And about the cpu usage, I'll increase the sleep duration in each thread but there might be something else going wrong since none of the threads should run at more than 100 Hz and that should rarely, if ever, cause enough load for 100% CPU usage on a single core given the amount of work that is actually being done by the launcher.


I really hope this get fixed before this launcher is shipped, or at least theres an option for the old launcher then since that one is working pretty fine.


On a sidenote i cant really get why you would build a LAUNCHER that consumes more ressources than the actual game itself on min. settings.


That's because of whatever wine does. My Mac Mini sits at 2.1% CPU, my Windows at 0%. This is mostly because multi-threading in Python is expensive, it performs a ton of system calls to check the GIL. Now in the case of the native windows and mac environment that is a heavy, yet insignificant prize to pay for keeping the UI responsive. However, in the case of running in Wine that seems to get worse because Wine needs to translate those Windows system calls to whatever Linux is using.

I do agree that this is not an optimal situation but it's an acceptable one for us. Rewriting the launcher in something else than Python does currently not make a lot of business sense - and trust me, I want to do it because f.e. our memory consumption is way too high and the start up times is way too slow, IMHO. This may or may not change depending on how the market evolves (and even then a native python client would perform a lot better than running inside Wine), but for now I'll have to refer you to the Wine guys and ask them what exactly it is that makes the launcher so super expensive in their environment.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.

Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers
#49 - 2013-05-17 17:07:23 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:
(and even then a native python client would perform a lot better than running inside Wine)

Why don't you just make a native python client. Python is cross-platform so it should be possible for you to do this. All we need is for you to add a extra entry for us where we can put our client launching command into it.
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2013-05-17 17:56:17 UTC
Nebu Retski wrote:
CCP Aporia wrote:
(and even then a native python client would perform a lot better than running inside Wine)

Why don't you just make a native python client. Python is cross-platform so it should be possible for you to do this. All we need is for you to add a extra entry for us where we can put our client launching command into it.


Because Linux is not an officially supported platform and that makes it impossible for our team to justify spending time on it. While python runs perfectly fine on Linux, then the lesson we learned from Mac OS is that there are a lot of special cases that we need to take care of for each operating system. Starting with where the EVE client lives, where it stores its settings, etc. on to some non-standard python libraries we are using that would require porting and compilation (for which Linux distribution? Would Ubuntu be sufficient?). Since none of us on the team has EVE running under Wine (at the moment) then it is near impossible to deal with those issues.

That being said we're looking into low hanging fruit that might crop up with the launcher on Linux, but it's things like this SSL timeout (Error -7) where we simply cannot justify spending time on it when it's not straight forward.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.

Anun Hen
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-05-17 18:18:18 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:


Because Linux is not an officially supported platform and that makes it impossible for our team to justify spending time on it. While python runs perfectly fine on Linux, then the lesson we learned from Mac OS is that there are a lot of special cases that we need to take care of for each operating system. Starting with where the EVE client lives, where it stores its settings, etc. on to some non-standard python libraries we are using that would require porting and compilation (for which Linux distribution? Would Ubuntu be sufficient?). Since none of us on the team has EVE running under Wine (at the moment) then it is near impossible to deal with those issues.

That being said we're looking into low hanging fruit that might crop up with the launcher on Linux, but it's things like this SSL timeout (Error -7) where we simply cannot justify spending time on it when it's not straight forward.


Appreciate the effort to engage with Linux users and wish I was able to provide some help with testing. Not much we can do, I remember CCP tried to officially support Linux for some time ... would be a shame to see the game break after 10 years because of a launcher though. I mean, the client appears to still be running 100% fine so far.

I know this means little, but in the same way you cannot justify spending time working on a linux version, I could hardly keep paying for 3 accounts either if the launcher remains broken ...
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#52 - 2013-05-17 21:18:20 UTC
For the immediate future your LInux based experience will still function acceptably; even though Wine fails to handle multi domain SSL connections. The EVE client can still be started, and logging in can still be accomplished there, much as you currently do.

However, since our goal is to allow alternative authentication methods, and those are designed to be implemented via web-services, at some point in the future the in-client login methods will be removed. There's no ETA for this at this time, but I am aware of the effect this would have on the EVE Linux community.

I can't promise that we will be able to fix these issues, since they appear to be fundamentally broken in Wine, but given that we're having this very discussion should point out that we're at least aware of the issues the new EVE Launcher experiences on Linux, even if we're not able to address them.
Mr M
Sebiestor Tribe
#53 - 2013-05-17 22:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr M
Launcher 2.1.537851-beta

It may be me imagining but it seems like there's higher success rate if I delete the launcher cache folder after every launch. Edit: Never mind, it was just me being randomly lucky. Now it don't work again.

I also had a look now and oddly enough it's the launcher window that hogs the cpu. What I assume is the validating process seems to only take 20% here.

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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#54 - 2013-05-17 22:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Just out of interest, what's wrong with ingame logins and why do we need a launcher at all? Every game getting a (most of the time more or less crappy and useless) web based Launcher has become a thing in the last few years and I don't really see why.

We don't really need the launcher for patching, as the game itself recognizes if it is out of date and can initiate a patcher program all by itself - we had that in the past and this still works if the game is launched via ExeFile.exe.
We also certainly don't need it for news or game related offers. We have news at the character selection screen and offers at the login screen and to be honest, if I happen to want news, I can find them myself without having them shoved in my face every gently caressing time I start Eve.

I am not saying that you should not do something because it might break wine compatibility. By all means, don't hold back features because they don't work well with some goofy 3rd party virtualisation layer for the wrong OS, the Linux community is like the Borg, we will adapt. At most we will suffer some inconveniences for a while until some dude who knows his **** comes up with a fix, we are used to that. But the thing is, from what I can see, the launcher doesn't add anything but fluff and possible error sources. Launchers are annoying and useles even when they work. Are "Never change a running system!" and "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" not a thing anymore these days?
Mr M
Sebiestor Tribe
#55 - 2013-05-17 22:21:41 UTC
Also, we really appreciate the devs taking their time with this. With their insight in the client and launcher code it's easier to figure out where the problem lies and it helps us file bug reports to the wine devs.

Share your experience

Write for the EVE Tribune

www.eve-tribune.com

Katrina Bekers
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2013-05-18 00:34:26 UTC
Dev attention to us is very, very appreciated. Even if in form of simple warnings and heads-up like this one, knowing well we're on our own when it comes to official support.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Dojen Kobunra
Yakuro Dojo Group
#57 - 2013-05-18 07:39:19 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
HI guys, just a heads up regarding incoming changes that we're working on for the EVE Launcher. Whilst the usual caveats apply regarding supporting Linux, I would appreciate it if you could give it a whirl, and let me know if there's anything that could be an easy fix.

Here's the thread in the Test Server forum.



EVE-launcher works perfectly with Wine and Ubuntu latest versions. It downloaded the patch and installed it without breaks.
But, by clicking the play button; everything collapses and crashes! I will not play EVE with lower resolution than 1600xd1200!!
So going back to windows while trying to find or build a fix for Gentoo cause Ubuntu definitely failed.

Please post any actual links for Gentoo-Linux solutions with 1600x1200resolution.

Thank You.

Creating artificial intelligence and drafting spacetime maps is not a game, its a job for the whole humanity.

Mikail Thiesant
Catiz is NOT my empress
#58 - 2013-05-18 08:10:23 UTC
Just want to let you know that after updating to wine 1.5.30 when I close the launcher window, the console starts filling up with these error messages:

err:ntdll:RtlpWaitForCriticalSection section 0x7bcc6da0 "rtl.c: peb_lock" wait timed out in thread 002e, blocked by 0028, retrying (60 sec)

After some time I get bash promt and ctrl+c works there too. Just wanted to warn those people thinking about upgrading wine to 1.5.30.
Karti Aivo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-05-18 11:00:42 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:

That's because of whatever wine does. My Mac Mini sits at 2.1% CPU, my Windows at 0%. This is mostly because multi-threading in Python is expensive, it performs a ton of system calls to check the GIL. Now in the case of the native windows and mac environment that is a heavy, yet insignificant prize to pay for keeping the UI responsive. However, in the case of running in Wine that seems to get worse because Wine needs to translate those Windows system calls to whatever Linux is using.

I do agree that this is not an optimal situation but it's an acceptable one for us. Rewriting the launcher in something else than Python does currently not make a lot of business sense - and trust me, I want to do it because f.e. our memory consumption is way too high and the start up times is way too slow, IMHO. This may or may not change depending on how the market evolves (and even then a native python client would perform a lot better than running inside Wine), but for now I'll have to refer you to the Wine guys and ask them what exactly it is that makes the launcher so super expensive in their environment.


Maybe this would be a good opportunity then to spread the idea around your workmates to devote some of your "20% dev time" stuff on ~~something Linux with the EVE Client~~ even if it ends up in a linux native launcher and a self-updating-wine where eve is wrapped in :D

But yeah, if this CPU Issue continues to happen, may think about an "old launcher" option before shipping :)
Katrina Bekers
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#60 - 2013-05-19 17:41:24 UTC
I think they're developing a new launcher to take advantage of SSO. And if this is the case, soon the old one will simply stop working at all - so having the option to use it would be pointless.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>