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Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#41 - 2013-05-07 17:44:19 UTC
Ruze wrote:

It also proved his point. New player is completely capable of winning battles with older players.

Tiff over the killmails all you want. He's the only one who's brought evidence to this discussion.


Thank you Ruze this will be my last post on this matter since we are off topicing the thread at hand.

What proof? What arethose killmails as proof? Ruze seriously I respect you as one of the best poster and respect member of the forum but really.. Those killmails really do not prove not a thing.

I know damage drones are not often used in PVP yet here is an example. Drone interfacing gives 20% damage per level. Almost every ship has drones above cruisers. Just one level of this skill makes your DPS with drones significantly higher.This means if you are older player you can easily have 100% more drone damage than new player that is already very significant damage up. Drones are always with you and they are part of frig defense. If you fly none drone base ship its possible that you have over looked this skill.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#42 - 2013-05-07 17:50:22 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I still go out and do weird kills where I play the "underdog" but decimate my opponent by using tactics, not SP.


tactics or not your skills are part of your pilot. When you train you gain very high performance to your ship. You get better mods in. That themselves already improve your performance. Your cap lasts better. You are faster. You can take more hit. You make more damage. Sum all of those up and you realize that those skills that you do not play with are serious part of your kills.

Of course you do not want to admit it since we play EGO online.


Yet, as a new character, I was out killing more experienced pilots, in "better ships" before I even had an SP advantage over my opponents:

Merlin vs Rifter
Merlin vs Claw
Merlin vs Crow
Merlin vs Raptor
Merlin vs Crusader (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis
Tristan vs Crow
Tristan vs Malediction

I could go on and on with examples, where my low-SP, cheap fit t1 frigates took on higher SP characters in T2 fit t2 ships. Most of the time, SP doesnt' matter nearly as much as combat tactics, and I'm providing you with evidence. You can keep trying to state how SP matters... but if that were so true why do I have a killboard record that blatantly defies that notion???

Tactics are what matter, and learning how to fit your ship, what to engage, how to engage, when to engage, is far, far more relevant than any SP total you have.

I am 100% confident that I can take a new player and teach them tricks and techniques to kill all sorts of "bigger and better" ships simply by employing tactics to overcome the SP differences their opponents have. It is precisely because Bigger does NOT mean better that this is true, and it's one of the major reasons I love EvE.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#43 - 2013-05-07 17:59:45 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Yet, as a new character, I was out killing more experienced pilots, in "better ships" before I even had an SP advantage over my opponents:

I could go on and on with examples, where my low-SP, cheap fit t1 frigates took on higher SP characters in T2 fit t2 ships. Most of the time, SP doesnt' matter nearly as much as combat tactics, and I'm providing you with evidence. You can keep trying to state how SP matters... but if that were so true why do I have a killboard record that blatantly defies that notion???

Tactics are what matter, and learning how to fit your ship, what to engage, how to engage, when to engage, is far, far more relevant than any SP total you have.

I am 100% confident that I can take a new player and teach them tricks and techniques to kill all sorts of "bigger and better" ships simply by employing tactics to overcome the SP differences their opponents have. It is precisely because Bigger does NOT mean better that this is true, and it's one of the major reasons I love EvE.


Gizznitt ok you show your fit and killmails we speak about importance of pilot skills when it comes to combat performance. Where is your skill sheet from that time? Even you have not fit any T2 modules it does not mean that you couldn't do it. You could have simply done a cheap fit. I can see still that you have taken very long working this out. Respects for that. Cool

Its interesting fit for merlin though. I am sure its quite nice against rifter that has been one of the flown ships though. Perhaps a test fit?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-05-07 18:10:28 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
true story -- I fly logistics cruisers and (from time to time) T1 hero tackle.

Haven't touched a BS in forever (since I ground missions), because keeping people alive* = more fun for me.


* well, trying to anyway Smile


EDIT -- big hint here.

RPG = Role Playing Game.

At its core, an RPG is meant to immerse you in your character and you play their role as best you can. I'm going to assume you're pretty young, as you seem to feel that the WOW-style "on rails" game is the core of an RPG (you're wrong).

RPGs of old (e.g. DnD) were built around the story of the characters. Sure, you had the NPC quests and other BS that the GM would take you on, but more importantly than that was developing the story that surrounded your characters...

WOW (and clones) do very little to give you the "RPG" feel. EVE is the only MMORPG that I can think of in recent times that has "gone back" to the "character stories are what matter" style of RPG.

THIS^.

Cant say how many times ive told people EVE is an RPG and they are like "nuh-uh, there arent levels or NPC questlines, or any of the stuff in WOW/Borderlands/derp"

and then i have to explain them that an RPG is a game entirely centered around your character and their choices, heck, even in the old DnD games there werent any "mandatory" quests, a good GM would just offer you sidejob opportunities on our adventre to get soem decent stuff, but ultimately it was your choice as to whether or not you did it.

In EVE, everything is your choice, build friendships, enemies, produce, destroy, lie, steal, give, defend, nothing is scripted and its entirely dependent on where you happen to be and what choice you happen to make, ane every choice having long-term repercussions.

EVE is in essence one of the last vestige of the True-RPG mindset, everyone else these days slaps a mandatory onrails storyline onto some art with numbers and levels atached and calls it a "captivating/awesome/enthralling/immersive RPG", its one fo the reasons why after i started eve about 2 and a half years ago, i literally COULD NOT go into another MMO without thinking "man, wouldnt it be great if players could build a base here" or "if i could only have this ability with this armor type for this class, i would be godmode, too bad on restrictions", in EVE i can do whatever i want.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#45 - 2013-05-07 18:39:20 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Yet, as a new character, I was out killing more experienced pilots, in "better ships" before I even had an SP advantage over my opponents:

I could go on and on with examples, where my low-SP, cheap fit t1 frigates took on higher SP characters in T2 fit t2 ships. Most of the time, SP doesnt' matter nearly as much as combat tactics, and I'm providing you with evidence. You can keep trying to state how SP matters... but if that were so true why do I have a killboard record that blatantly defies that notion???

Tactics are what matter, and learning how to fit your ship, what to engage, how to engage, when to engage, is far, far more relevant than any SP total you have.

I am 100% confident that I can take a new player and teach them tricks and techniques to kill all sorts of "bigger and better" ships simply by employing tactics to overcome the SP differences their opponents have. It is precisely because Bigger does NOT mean better that this is true, and it's one of the major reasons I love EvE.


Gizznitt ok you show your fit and killmails we speak about importance of pilot skills when it comes to combat performance. Where is your skill sheet from that time? Even you have not fit any T2 modules it does not mean that you couldn't do it. You could have simply done a cheap fit. I can see still that you have taken very long working this out. Respects for that. Cool

Its interesting fit for merlin though. I am sure its quite nice against rifter that has been one of the flown ships though. Perhaps a test fit?


I do not have a copy of my skillsheet at that time. Could I use a t2 repper? or t2 DCU? Certainly, as training to use those takes a day or two. Could I use t2 weapons? I doubt it, but don't know (I don't hink I trained t2 blasters/rockets until the end of that summer). There were only large rigs then, so people rarely rigged frigs. What was my SP total... probably between 5-10m SP. However, I first came into the game, spent several Months training learning & advance learning skills to V (there was no cerebral accelerators then), and this represented the majority of my SP, by far. Then I trained core skills like Engineering, Mechanic, Cap Management to IVs & V's, and then started on ship & weapons skills.

Why the "stange fit"? It was a cheap fit because I didn't have major sources of isk. It might look like an "experimental fit," but it was designed specifically to catch and kill interceptors (we called that tactic fishing). To be honest, I made most of my isk when learning to PvP by fitting cheap-fit frigates and killing interceptors, looting and salvaging them.

When I fit my ship, I didn't strive for the best modules. I fit what I could afford, and picked my targets based on what I could defeat using tactics. It was tactics that won most of those fights, and that's still the case today.

New players are in a different place today, they can accrue (relevant) SP faster, they have improved forms of revenue, etc. The metagame has also changed, where "common" ships and fits are very different than they were 4 years ago. However, SP hasn't become more relevant.. and tactics are still what determine the outcome of most fights!
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#46 - 2013-05-07 19:00:23 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I do not have a copy of my skillsheet at that time. Could I use a t2 repper? or t2 DCU? Certainly, as training to use those takes a day or two. Could I use t2 weapons? I doubt it, but don't know (I don't hink I trained t2 blasters/rockets until the end of that summer). There were only large rigs then, so people rarely rigged frigs. What was my SP total... probably between 5-10m SP. However, I first came into the game, spent several Months training learning & advance learning skills to V (there was no cerebral accelerators then), and this represented the majority of my SP, by far. Then I trained core skills like Engineering, Mechanic, Cap Management to IVs & V's, and then started on ship & weapons skills.

Why the "stange fit"? It was a cheap fit because I didn't have major sources of isk. It might look like an "experimental fit," but it was designed specifically to catch and kill interceptors (we called that tactic fishing). To be honest, I made most of my isk when learning to PvP by fitting cheap-fit frigates and killing interceptors, looting and salvaging them.

When I fit my ship, I didn't strive for the best modules. I fit what I could afford, and picked my targets based on what I could defeat using tactics. It was tactics that won most of those fights, and that's still the case today.

New players are in a different place today, they can accrue (relevant) SP faster, they have improved forms of revenue, etc. The metagame has also changed, where "common" ships and fits are very different than they were 4 years ago. However, SP hasn't become more relevant.. and tactics are still what determine the outcome of most fights!


Core skills are one of the most important ones. If you read my post over the forum you see that I most often state that EVE is rock/paper/scissors game PVP game. Your Merlin was specialized to kill fast ships. I find it quite fascinating because as in my inexperience I could not think that you could fit Merlin that way. Its brilliant. I do not know where Merlin stands in today's EVE but I wish I had figure out such fits long time ago :p Anyway my point being is that if new player brings an paper he wins a rock. Yes its possible. I had maybe bit strong wording about bad vet player before. And you are true that in fair fight both sides must feel that they can win. This Merlin was really good against speed tanked explosive / kinetic spewing ships and you can see it through out your kills. Yet if you had met someone flying similar ship -- not the same. You had most likely lost unless you did some move better than them. Skills have effect yes also the object you can call paper or rock does. Bear

I do not do that much PVP anymore would like to do more but don't like how low sec is today FW does not really work out too well and pirates misuse complexes. It seems that most of the kills you linked at least are against PVP fit ships which is really impressive. I hope I could do the same. Low sec in general is not in very good condition. Sad
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#47 - 2013-05-07 19:28:40 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I do not have a copy of my skillsheet at that time. Could I use a t2 repper? or t2 DCU? Certainly, as training to use those takes a day or two. Could I use t2 weapons? I doubt it, but don't know (I don't hink I trained t2 blasters/rockets until the end of that summer). There were only large rigs then, so people rarely rigged frigs. What was my SP total... probably between 5-10m SP. However, I first came into the game, spent several Months training learning & advance learning skills to V (there was no cerebral accelerators then), and this represented the majority of my SP, by far. Then I trained core skills like Engineering, Mechanic, Cap Management to IVs & V's, and then started on ship & weapons skills.

Why the "stange fit"? It was a cheap fit because I didn't have major sources of isk. It might look like an "experimental fit," but it was designed specifically to catch and kill interceptors (we called that tactic fishing). To be honest, I made most of my isk when learning to PvP by fitting cheap-fit frigates and killing interceptors, looting and salvaging them.

When I fit my ship, I didn't strive for the best modules. I fit what I could afford, and picked my targets based on what I could defeat using tactics. It was tactics that won most of those fights, and that's still the case today.

New players are in a different place today, they can accrue (relevant) SP faster, they have improved forms of revenue, etc. The metagame has also changed, where "common" ships and fits are very different than they were 4 years ago. However, SP hasn't become more relevant.. and tactics are still what determine the outcome of most fights!


Core skills are one of the most important ones. If you read my post over the forum you see that I most often state that EVE is rock/paper/scissors game PVP game. Your Merlin was specialized to kill fast ships. I find it quite fascinating because as in my inexperience I could not think that you could fit Merlin that way. Its brilliant. I do not know where Merlin stands in today's EVE but I wish I had figure out such fits long time ago :p Anyway my point being is that if new player brings an paper he wins a rock. Yes its possible. I had maybe bit strong wording about bad vet player before. And you are true that in fair fight both sides must feel that they can win. This Merlin was really good against speed tanked explosive / kinetic spewing ships and you can see it through out your kills. Yet if you had met someone flying similar ship -- not the same. You had most likely lost unless you did some move better than them. Skills have effect yes also the object you can call paper or rock does. Bear

I do not do that much PVP anymore would like to do more but don't like how low sec is today FW does not really work out too well and pirates misuse complexes. It seems that most of the kills you linked at least are against PVP fit ships which is really impressive. I hope I could do the same. Low sec in general is not in very good condition. Sad


FW has one major imbalancing factor: The prevalence of Off Grid Boosters. OGB give 30%+ more speed, 30% more tank, 60%+ better repping, longer ewar range, stronger EWAR. These boosts dwarf any boosts players get from SP advantages. Often 1v1's in FW are: OGB + 1 vs 1, and this really destroys much of the balance until we end up with OGB + 1 vs OGB + 1, and a new player won't have access to OGB's until they join up with more experienced players. When (not if) they deservingly nerf the ever-living crap out of OGB'ing, lowsec PvP will become manageable.

And yes, you are right when someone fits paper, they destroy rock and lose to scissors, and the mirror match against paper is very much up in the air (I still believe how you engage will determine the winner of the mirror match more often than superior SP). It's precisely because this Rochambeau game exists that SP aren't the determining factor in fights. It's about finding the targets you can kill, avoiding the targets that will kill you, and taking the occasional gamble when the outcome is unknown.
DitchDigger
Hibi Proletariat
#48 - 2013-05-07 20:20:07 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:

The type of progression you describe is largely superficial anyway. It's mainly just inflation of numbers and a new cycle of grind where the end result is close to where you started from, since everyone got boosted..


^
|
|
What she said.

We don't want the linear 'progression' model you describe.
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