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New Consumer Bill of Rights (UK) impact on Eve

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Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-05-06 21:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#122 - 2013-05-06 21:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
baltec1 wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Distant sellers act.


yeah, ok.
Because I refuse to believe it exists such stupidity, I choose to believe you are a troll. I dont encourage trolling, therefore Ill ignore you from now on


The Distance Selling Regulations were passed to protect consumers when they shop online or enter into other contracts at a distance from the supplier. It was brought into power in 2000 and covers every online sale apart from private sales and business to business sales.


You do have to read it carefully though as there are exceptions.

For example, the regulations regarding a consumers "Right to cancel" do not apply in some cases, such as in relation to...
"gaming, betting or lottery services" as they word it.

Suffice to say that the regulations being discussed in the OP will have to be worded quite a bit differently before they will approach being anything remotely enforceable.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-05-06 21:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#124 - 2013-05-06 21:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
If CCP was ever held to something like this, the work around could be:

If the customer asks for service to be canceled, CCP refunds the unused portion of the subscription (assuming it was not paid for via PLEX).

If server issues freeze the game for one or more players, those players have their subscription time extended by the length of the freeze. You froze for an hour? Your subscription now expires on June 5 at 1600 hours instead of June 5 at 1500.

Edit: I also think they could make a very good case that "scheduled down time" is not a freeze. It does mean they would have to greatly overestimate patch day down time to insure they never go over.

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Frozen fanfiction
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2013-05-06 21:27:12 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
The key will be access to the EVE servers.

In effect, you are not buying the client software. It is given to you for free. The subscription fee is for the right to access the servers. The law can't "protect your right to access someone else's computers", since you don't buy or own that right, only lease that given certain terms and conditions, covered by a contract known as the EULA.


Only way it can is if somehow nobody can connect to the servers for a long time. This law change will impact the likes of EA sim city lunch disaters and netflix being unwatchable. CCP don't need to do anything.
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#126 - 2013-05-06 21:28:16 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT WANT TO TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?



"They're just selling access to their servers", is the key point. The law covers services as well as physical goods. Keep in mind that something does not need to be tangible to be sold to someone. And that law is indeed applicable to any company selling that intangible service to a citizen of another country. This whole thread is merely speculation however, the real test will come if someone decides to test that law by bringing a case to court. Then the application of the law will be up to the interpretation of the judge overseeing the case.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#127 - 2013-05-06 21:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Vincent Athena wrote:
If CCP was ever held to something like this, the work around could be:

If the customer asks for service to be canceled, CCP refunds the unused portion of the subscription (assuming it was not paid for via PLEX).

If server issues freeze the game for one or more players, those players have their subscription time extended by the length of the freeze. You froze for an hour? Your subscription now expires on June 5 at 1600 hours instead of June 5 at 1500.

That would apply in the case of documented server disruption, however most "game freezes" have little or nothing to do with CCP or their servers.
The crux of the matter is how would law enforcement in the UK determine whether that hour you were unable to get a playable connection was due to an issue at CCP's end, or instead due to any one of a hundred other (more likely) issues that developed somewhere between CCP and you.

Furthermore, at what point does it actually become realistic to tie up court time and generate court fee's to hash it out?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2013-05-06 21:29:19 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?


We get apple to obay our customer laws.

So yes, yes we can.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#129 - 2013-05-06 21:32:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?


We get apple to obay our customer laws.

So yes, yes we can.

Yeah, it's a lot easier when you are dealing with tangible items.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#130 - 2013-05-06 21:33:53 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?


We get apple to obay our customer laws.

So yes, yes we can.

Yeah, it's a lot easier when you are dealing with tangible items.


Also Itunes.
Ginger Barbarella
#131 - 2013-05-06 21:39:03 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:
Another case of nanny governments creating more laws. soon they'll be telling us how much Quafe we can drink and that Guristas, Blood Raiders and Sanshas actually have human rights Shocked


Or, in the case of the US, we'll be told that they're terrorist organizations and by having them in the game we're being brainwashed into committing terrorist, lone-wolf acts against an ignorant, unsuspecting public.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-05-06 21:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?


http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/05/02/0324212/google-ordered-back-to-uk-parliament-to-explain-itself-following-investigation

Apparentley selling no wares in the UK can get you summoned to explain yourself before the parliment.

Oh and before you say "But... But... CCP doesn't have UK offices!"... Well yes they do....

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/02/26/ccp-opens-uk-office/

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#133 - 2013-05-06 21:46:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?


We get apple to obay our customer laws.

So yes, yes we can.

Yeah, it's a lot easier when you are dealing with tangible items.


Also Itunes.

I get what you are saying, but purchasing a digital item (song, movie) falls a little more into the easily provable or "tangible" camp than brief outages or "game freezes" in an internet game (service).

I'm not saying it very clearly, but I think you take my meaning.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#134 - 2013-05-06 21:48:09 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
J3ssica Alba wrote:
Another case of nanny governments creating more laws. soon they'll be telling us how much Quafe we can drink and that Guristas, Blood Raiders and Sanshas actually have human rights Shocked


Or, in the case of the US, we'll be told that they're terrorist organizations and by having them in the game we're being brainwashed into committing terrorist, lone-wolf acts against an ignorant, unsuspecting public.

So lets educate them and make them suspicious... problem solved. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2013-05-06 21:49:25 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I get what you are saying, but purchasing a digital item (song, movie) falls a little more into the easily provable or "tangible" camp than brief outages or "game freezes" in an internet game (service).

I'm not saying it very clearly, but I think you take my meaning.


I get youBlink
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-05-06 21:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Ranger 1 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
FOLKS CCP DOES NOT TRADE ANYTHING WITH THE UK. They're just selling access to their servers, servers being an asset of a company based in Iceland. Wheres the trade? UK citizens are just an extremely small part of the CCP customers, yet all I get is the "you sell stuff to UK citizens in UK" which clearly isnt the case,

Again, theres nothing to trade IN THE UK. AN ABROAD company is selling a service on the internet, said service reaching also UK, among many other countries. How do you, UK, force them to obey your law?

How do you, UK, force them to obey your laws?
Can you?


We get apple to obay our customer laws.

So yes, yes we can.

Yeah, it's a lot easier when you are dealing with tangible items.


Also Itunes.

I get what you are saying, but purchasing a digital item (song, movie) falls a little more into the easily provable or "tangible" camp than brief outages or "game freezes" in an internet game (service).

I'm not saying it very clearly, but I think you take my meaning.


Well I'm sure if Netflix UK wouldn't stream for days on end, they would get hit with a consumer lawsuit if they didn't offer compensation.

The question shouldn't be "Can a country legislate or use judicial controls on foreign companies?" because yes they can. If you want to do business in a country you have to play ball in their country or they will just shut you off by blocking you like they did pirate bay. The question you should be asking "Will the UK law respond to such a claim?"

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#137 - 2013-05-06 22:04:45 UTC
Yes, in the case of an easily verifiable widespread failure in service for a significant amount of time it's pretty cut and dried.

However, if that outage of service was due instead to a major failure in the UK backbone that kept Netflix from being able to deliver the service, well that's another story.

In the above situation it would be fairly easy (and worthwhile) to find the point of failure. But such a scenario is not likely to occur with EvE. Typically if there is a server outage of several hours or a day (due perhaps to a bad deployement, or issue with upgrading their servers) then CCP of their own accord extends your account by that amount.

The point being at the moment the legislation in question is so vaguely worded as to be unenforceable.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-05-06 22:12:25 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Distant sellers act.


yeah, ok.
Because I refuse to believe it exists such stupidity, I choose to believe you are a troll. I dont encourage trolling, therefore Ill ignore you from now on

He isn't trolling, that is the law on the books of the UK.

Say its rubbish in court, it won't be taken as a defence how silly you think the law is or nonsensical. It would even stand up in the European High Courts as I understand it should it be appealed there.

I wasnt saying him mentioning the law is trolling, but him avoiding the world market (aka internet) implications. Stuff is happening and alot of them, outside his neighbourhood. Just pointing out hes not aware of alot of things
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2013-05-06 22:28:15 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:

I wasnt saying him mentioning the law is trolling, but him avoiding the world market (aka internet) implications. Stuff is happening and alot of them, outside his neighbourhood. Just pointing out hes not aware of alot of things


I am aware of my nations laws regarding the sale of items on the internet.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2013-05-06 22:33:46 UTC
That law will likely be treated like the physical equivalent, meaning that as long as the responsible party makes an effort to minimize or remove faults in their product/service the law will never take effect.
CCP has been very aggressive when comes to finding solutions to the lag/disconnect issues and no court in the world would ever penalize them as complete removal of the issue is a practical impossibility due to the nature of EVE (one server, 60k people) .. especially since they have never hidden it and are doing their damnedest to alleviate it.

In short: Unless CCP goes EA on our arses, it is doubtful that you will ever be able to seek refuge in said legislation.
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. It's not like CCP advertises that their servers will be on 23/7 all day every day.

Eulas and the ilk can to my knowledge never override national or regional legislation. If they could then there would be no protection for anyone as companies will promise the moon for your X and then screw you over the next second, using commercial pressure to keep the X's coming .. we humans are rather simple when you get right down to it Smile