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New Consumer Bill of Rights (UK) impact on Eve

First post
Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2013-05-06 20:45:39 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:

I dont have any operation in the UK, I'm selling an item on the internet, let's say nails Big smile, just like CCP who's selling a service (access to its servers). Again, how will your UK law affect me?


You fall under the distant sellers act.

You do have an operation in the uk because you sold goods in the uk.
NOTA JITA
Doomheim
#102 - 2013-05-06 20:49:54 UTC
Well no one gives a crap what the "queen" thinks anyway so meh
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#103 - 2013-05-06 20:50:22 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:
I get the feeling we're going around in circles here though. Unless the UK makes a a bill against internet spaceships running on a server then any UK laws are incredibly unlikely to have any impact on CCP directly.


It sounds like its a piece removing the seller to refuse refunds based on lack of service at time of purchase/subscription due to their own fault. Simcity being the best example.

CCP offer an internet game based on subscriptions, hence the connection. The two most important countries to CCP are Iceland and the UK in that order, hence why its more important than say New Zealand enacting the legislation as I understand it.

Not quite sure what else can be said really until CCP throw their two pence in.

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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-05-06 20:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Well the only way I think you could get your money back is if you were banned and CCP wasn't informative on why you were banned. If you could prove to your local authorities that no good reason for the banning took place then you might get your money back.

Of course if you lied and said you weren't using any 3rd party utilities, and it turned out you did, you might get into legal hot water for that.

I suppose I am talking about is instances where CCP is compelty silent on the issue of why you were banned, but perhaps when money starts being involved they would speak up.

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Innabiggahurry
Doomheim
#105 - 2013-05-06 20:56:34 UTC
I love how people have taken off running with a poorly written article that manages to turn a poorly worded quote from a non-technical person into a game "freezing," whatever that is supposed to mean.

Also, this is still the advisement phase and no one has actually submitted any legislation yet.

Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-05-06 20:57:39 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:


As long as nails were legal in the UK, then there would be no issue.

If nails were legal in Poland but illegal in the UK, when they entered the UK they would be subject to UK laws. This could mean confiscation, destruction, fines if they could prove who brought it and so on....

I get the feeling we're going around in circles here though. Unless the UK makes a a bill against internet spaceships running on a server then any UK laws are incredibly unlikely to have any impact on CCP directly.


The thing is, UK made (or will make, not sure ^^) a bill against "freezes" in MMOs, including the spaceships ones. I saw alot of red herrings and strawmen, and very few straight answers to this question ; can you, the mighty UK, enforce your local law on me, an abroad company? Instead of answers, I got a worrisome amount responses from brits who cant imagine theres a world outside their neighbourhood, and keep pushing their UK laws in front. Well, breaking news, UK laws dont apply outside the UK
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#107 - 2013-05-06 20:59:12 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
rofflesausage wrote:
I get the feeling we're going around in circles here though. Unless the UK makes a a bill against internet spaceships running on a server then any UK laws are incredibly unlikely to have any impact on CCP directly.


It sounds like its a piece removing the seller to refuse refunds based on lack of service at time of purchase/subscription due to their own fault. Simcity being the best example.

CCP offer an internet game based on subscriptions, hence the connection. The two most important countries to CCP are Iceland and the UK in that order, hence why its more important than say New Zealand enacting the legislation as I understand it.

Not quite sure what else can be said really until CCP throw their two pence in.


CCP wont have much to fear.

Its the likes of the sim city **** up that this thing will clobber. Which in my book is a good thing.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-05-06 21:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Kizen
baltec1 wrote:


You fall under the distant sellers act.

You do have an operation in the uk because you sold goods in the uk.


No, I havent sold anything in the UK. I put my goods for sale on an open market environment(aka internet), and you , as a customer, based on a country, decided its best for you to buy my goods. Again, how does your local law/regulation affects me?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#109 - 2013-05-06 21:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


You fall under the distant sellers act.

You do have an operation in the uk because you sold goods in the uk.


No, I havent sold anything in the UK. I put my goods for sale on an open market environment, and you , as a customer, based on a country, decided its best for you to buy my goods. Again, how does your local law/regulation affects me?


Distant sellers act.

It doesnt matter where in the world you are based, if you sell to the uk then you obey our laws in the sale fo those goods.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-05-06 21:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mina Kizen wrote:
rofflesausage wrote:


As long as nails were legal in the UK, then there would be no issue.

If nails were legal in Poland but illegal in the UK, when they entered the UK they would be subject to UK laws. This could mean confiscation, destruction, fines if they could prove who brought it and so on....

I get the feeling we're going around in circles here though. Unless the UK makes a a bill against internet spaceships running on a server then any UK laws are incredibly unlikely to have any impact on CCP directly.


The thing is, UK made (or will make, not sure ^^) a bill against "freezes" in MMOs, including the spaceships ones. I saw alot of red herrings and strawmen, and very few straight answers to this question ; can you, the mighty UK, enforce your local law on me, an abroad company? Instead of answers, I got a worrisome amount responses from brits who cant imagine theres a world outside their neighbourhood, and keep pushing their UK laws in front. Well, breaking news, UK laws dont apply outside the UK


I have mentioned before this does not apply. If you try to sell a WW2 swastika armband in the USA on eBay and even if you were going to specifically sell it to someone else in the USA, you cannot because France sued eBay and won saying you cannot sell any German historical items with swastika imagery on it because that is specifically illegal in France although legal in the USA.

Apparently, in order to continue doing business in France, eBay gave in to France over this issue. Which means you can't sell items with swastikas on them anywhere on eBay.

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Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#111 - 2013-05-06 21:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Setaceous
Mina Kizen wrote:
rofflesausage wrote:


As long as nails were legal in the UK, then there would be no issue.

If nails were legal in Poland but illegal in the UK, when they entered the UK they would be subject to UK laws. This could mean confiscation, destruction, fines if they could prove who brought it and so on....

I get the feeling we're going around in circles here though. Unless the UK makes a a bill against internet spaceships running on a server then any UK laws are incredibly unlikely to have any impact on CCP directly.


The thing is, UK made (or will make, not sure ^^) a bill against "freezes" in MMOs, including the spaceships ones. I saw alot of red herrings and strawmen, and very few straight answers to this question ; can you, the mighty UK, enforce your local law on me, an abroad company? Instead of answers, I got a worrisome amount responses from brits who cant imagine theres a world outside their neighbourhood, and keep pushing their UK laws in front. Well, breaking news, UK laws dont apply outside the UK

The way international laws work in the majority of Commonwealth countries is that, if you sell a good or service to a citizen or company within that country, then that good or service is subject to the sales and after sales laws of that country. Note that I said the majority, not all. Most have updated their laws and those laws do indeed cover international sales of goods and services over the Internet. Some have not.

However if a seller doesn't do some research and gets caught out by the laws of a Commonwealth country, then they cannot claim ignorance of the law. The basic principle of British and Commonwealth law is that ignorance is no defense.
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-05-06 21:05:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Distant sellers act.


yeah, ok.
Because I refuse to believe it exists such stupidity, I choose to believe you are a troll. I dont encourage trolling, therefore Ill ignore you from now on
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#113 - 2013-05-06 21:06:11 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
The thing is, UK made (or will make, not sure ^^) a bill against "freezes" in MMOs, including the spaceships ones. I saw alot of red herrings and strawmen, and very few straight answers to this question ; can you, the mighty UK, enforce your local law on me, an abroad company? Instead of answers, I got a worrisome amount responses from brits who cant imagine theres a world outside their neighbourhood, and keep pushing their UK laws in front. Well, breaking news, UK laws dont apply outside the UK

But we can legislate for companies that want to trade with the UK. If CCP wants to have a customer base in the UK, currently they trade under UK law with UK customers. Polish law with Polish customers under the framework of the EU and EFTA.

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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#114 - 2013-05-06 21:07:52 UTC
Innabiggahurry wrote:
I love how people have taken off running with a poorly written article that manages to turn a poorly worded quote from a non-technical person into a game "freezing," whatever that is supposed to mean.

Also, this is still the advisement phase and no one has actually submitted any legislation yet.


Aye, but its an intellectual exercises. We all know this is speculation and that its origin is the Queens speech which means it is the intent and spirit of new legislation.

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Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#115 - 2013-05-06 21:09:31 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Distant sellers act.


yeah, ok.
Because I refuse to believe it exists such stupidity, I choose to believe you are a troll. I dont encourage trolling, therefore Ill ignore you from now on

Really? I believe the stupidity here is on your part. A quick search got me to http://www.out-law.com/page-430 which outlines the law in everyday language.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#116 - 2013-05-06 21:11:20 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Distant sellers act.


yeah, ok.
Because I refuse to believe it exists such stupidity, I choose to believe you are a troll. I dont encourage trolling, therefore Ill ignore you from now on

He isn't trolling, that is the law on the books of the UK.

Say its rubbish in court, it won't be taken as a defence how silly you think the law is or nonsensical. It would even stand up in the European High Courts as I understand it should it be appealed there.

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Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#117 - 2013-05-06 21:14:04 UTC
While it has been a while since loss of service has happened in EvE (for me at least) I do not believe that CCP will have to change anything to comply with the law. Best Practice in older MMOs is that if the consumer has sustained loss of service then those days are credited back to the account. My old WoW account has day, two day and three day credits littered through it from when service was lost.

This law is more aimed at sustained loss of service such as Sim City's launch day, sustained loss of service to streaming services (effectively offering similar protections to the consumer as in cable and digital signals) and ensuring that if other companies don't already use the above best practice of crediting when sustained loss of service occurs that they do so. It also acts as a deterent to companies thinking they can launch a game without reasonably testing their servers or supplying lower server load than could of been reasonably assumed.
Lady Areola Fappington
#118 - 2013-05-06 21:17:44 UTC
I have a friend of mine who runs a moderately successful online SCUBA gear website, who specifically refuses to sell to UK people due to the whole Distant Sellers Act and such.

A big chunk of SCUBA gear sellers run on no refund/exchanges, due to liability issues with reselling equipment. UK divers use different fittings than the US n dive gear. UK dude bought a system, then tried to return it.

Ended up causing a big kerfluffle, so said friend refuses to do business with the UK.

This was a Lady Faps threadjack, you may now return to spacelawyering.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2013-05-06 21:18:14 UTC
Mina Kizen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Distant sellers act.


yeah, ok.
Because I refuse to believe it exists such stupidity, I choose to believe you are a troll. I dont encourage trolling, therefore Ill ignore you from now on


The Distance Selling Regulations were passed to protect consumers when they shop online or enter into other contracts at a distance from the supplier. It was brought into power in 2000 and covers every online sale apart from private sales and business to business sales.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-05-06 21:20:13 UTC
The key will be access to the EVE servers.

In effect, you are not buying the client software. It is given to you for free. The subscription fee is for the right to access the servers. The law can't "protect your right to access someone else's computers", since you don't buy or own that right, only lease that given certain terms and conditions, covered by a contract known as the EULA.