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New Consumer Bill of Rights (UK) impact on Eve

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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#1 - 2013-05-06 16:30:22 UTC
In the Queens speech today there was an announcement of a bill to protect consumers of digital goods and services, in the same way as physical goods rolling them into the same law. As this effects Eve in many respects, I think this is something the British player base would be interested to see CCP's position on.

Guardian wrote:
• An updating of the law to give greater protection to consumers who download films, music and games – a £1bn industry. The bill will make clear that a consumer must receive a refund if an online game freezes or if a film stream is unwatchable even if the broadband connection is fine.


What with lag being endemic to Eve and other games, but thankfully its effects reduced by such as Time Dilation, what would fall under the purview of this law is uncertain. However to speculate, node crashes and boot.ini would be under such a bill. As would Error 37 and Simcity, but thats another story.

Article is here.

Posted in General Discussion as it is Discussion of an Eve related article and its consequences.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2013-05-06 16:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Any word on car manufacturers giving refunds if the vehicle can't reach the advertised speed - regardless of traffic conditions?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Missive Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-06 16:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Missive Ernaga
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. It's not like CCP advertises that their servers will be on 23/7 all day every day.
Danni stark
#4 - 2013-05-06 16:33:55 UTC
enjoy a lengthy "it's your isp" "no it's ccp" "no it's your isp" "no it's ccp" argument that'd follow if you tried to get a refund from ccp after something goes wrong.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#5 - 2013-05-06 16:35:49 UTC
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime.

This will likely trump the EULA in the courts, doubly so as the servers are based out of London. The Bill is intended to increase consumer protection by nullifying such anti consumer practices.

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Jonasan Mikio
Must Remove Snow Flakes
#6 - 2013-05-06 16:36:35 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
enjoy a lengthy "it's your isp" "no it's ccp" "no it's your isp" "no it's ccp" argument that'd follow if you tried to get a refund from ccp after something goes wrong.



Of course this will happen, but what is going to happen now, is that people will have a legal right to sue CCP if they don't provide refunds.
Missive Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-05-06 16:37:16 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
enjoy a lengthy "it's your isp" "no it's ccp" "no it's your isp" "no it's ccp" argument that'd follow if you tried to get a refund from ccp after something goes wrong.



Exactly the bill relies on proving a negative "it is not an ISP problem" which can never be completely proven by the consumer or even the ISP at times.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2013-05-06 16:37:19 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime.

This will likely trump the EULA in the courts, doubly so as the servers are based out of London. The Bill is intended to increase consumer protection by nullifying such anti consumer practices.



CCP can point out that even if a specific system is "unplayable" due to lag (and lag rarely makes things actually and literally unplayable these days), that there are over 7000 over systems in the game that the customer can have the full use of if he so chooses.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Farley genocent
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-05-06 16:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Farley Genocent
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. It's not like CCP advertises that their servers will be on 23/7 all day every day.


Despite the fact that I can never see an eventuality where I would feel the need to pursue this but as far as I am aware the EULA is an 'after sales contract' and isn't 100% enforceable, also local laws trump EULA's

As for the bill being required to 'prove a negative' Until it has gone through all it's readings there really is no way to know.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#10 - 2013-05-06 16:38:50 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
In the Queens speech today there was an announcement of a bill to protect consumers of digital goods and services, in the same way as physical goods rolling them into the same law. As this effects Eve in many respects, I think this is something the British player base would be interested to see CCP's position on.

Guardian wrote:
• An updating of the law to give greater protection to consumers who download films, music and games – a £1bn industry. The bill will make clear that a consumer must receive a refund if an online game freezes or if a film stream is unwatchable even if the broadband connection is fine.


What with lag being endemic to Eve and other games, but thankfully its effects reduced by such as Time Dilation, what would fall under the purview of this law is uncertain. However to speculate, node crashes and boot.ini would be under such a bill. As would Error 37 and Simcity, but thats another story.

Article is here.

Posted in General Discussion as it is Discussion of an Eve related article and its consequences.

Speculation is speculative.

Node crashes? Really? The law is going to make them vanish? Or apply punative liability to stochastic events? That is hardly going to pass the real-world 'smell' test.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-05-06 16:39:04 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
In the Queens speech today there was an announcement of a bill to protect consumers of digital goods and services, in the same way as physical goods rolling them into the same law. As this effects Eve in many respects, I think this is something the British player base would be interested to see CCP's position on.

Guardian wrote:
• An updating of the law to give greater protection to consumers who download films, music and games – a £1bn industry. The bill will make clear that a consumer must receive a refund if an online game freezes or if a film stream is unwatchable even if the broadband connection is fine.


What with lag being endemic to Eve and other games, but thankfully its effects reduced by such as Time Dilation, what would fall under the purview of this law is uncertain. However to speculate, node crashes and boot.ini would be under such a bill. As would Error 37 and Simcity, but thats another story.

Article is here.

Posted in General Discussion as it is Discussion of an Eve related article and its consequences.



Dear Eve Online Player:
Please accept our heart felt apologies on the recent lag your account experienced, and find attached the refund of your subscription fee for the past 30 days.

Also, as we can no longer guarantee your connections to our service, we must regretfully terminate your service indefinitely, until such time as the Internet's infrastructure shall meet certain minimum threshholds.

Yours in Fellowship
CCP Legal Department.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#12 - 2013-05-06 16:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oh sure. They'll pay you back the €.02 that an hour of downtime has cost you. Doing so will require them to charge you €3.99 in handling fees, though.

Farley genocent wrote:
as I am aware the EULA is an 'after sales contract' and isn't 100% enforceable
Nope. You have to agree with it before you're allowed to create an account — long before you've even begun to touch the “sales” part. It's as pre-sales as they come, and yes, they could probably point to it as an SLA you've agreed with as far as both expected and unexpected downtime goes.
Missive Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-05-06 16:42:12 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime.

This will likely trump the EULA in the courts, doubly so as the servers are based out of London. The Bill is intended to increase consumer protection by nullifying such anti consumer practices.



Where in the bill does it state that all games must have 24/7 functionality? Does that mean the daily downtime CCP performs will be illegal if they don't perform refunds on a daily basis for anyone who requests it?

Would this extend to test servers as well? You don't get access to the test servers unless you pay.

Load of nanny-state anti-business feel-good bullshit put forth by politicians who have no idea what they are talking about.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#14 - 2013-05-06 16:43:00 UTC
Both what you posted and the article say "If a game freezes".

I don't think when the bill is written that will mean every time the server stops, I think it will mean if the game stops altogether or substantially.

Otherwise both WoW and Eve and every other server based game would be completely free forever, which is obviously not going to happen.

As many gripes as I have ever had with Eve, server uptime is certainly not one of them. Their hardware and their diligence towards keeping it up are about the best in the industry.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-05-06 16:45:26 UTC
I can see two things happening

1. Videogame Lobbyist will work to get "special exceptions" for online games
2. Video game sub cost will skyrocket as they'll need to upgrade servers to reduce all cases of server side lag

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#16 - 2013-05-06 16:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirjava
silens vesica wrote:
Node crashes? Really? The law is going to make them vanish? Or apply punative liability to stochastic events? That is hardly going to pass the real-world 'smell' test.

Aye, its speculative and pretty much until it comes to the UK courts all debate would be speculation (how our legal system works unfortunately). The intent would be to apply the stick to service providers to better maintain/upgrade infrastructure as needed (as is the recent case with Simcity).

And this is the House of Commons, they are not the most technically minded lot and I wouldn't be too surprised if this passed due to their lack of technical understanding and differentiation between physical and digital services.

While this is speculative, and CCP has taken massive strides in stability and uptime since I started in 2004, this is a proposed new law that could be binding if the servers go down. I don't know how in depth the definition of uptime would be, from total server crash to Jita lagging out, just enough that its worthwhile putting the article up for debate.

Its also being introduced in the country where the physical servers are, and the UK is not exactly on the best of terms with Iceland after the banking crash...

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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#17 - 2013-05-06 16:49:28 UTC
Law and Order: UK : EVE.

Id watch that.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Ari Laveran
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-05-06 16:49:45 UTC
Another example of lawmakers not understanding that which they are legislating. bollocks.
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-05-06 16:51:58 UTC
Another case of nanny governments creating more laws. soon they'll be telling us how much Quafe we can drink and that Guristas, Blood Raiders and Sanshas actually have human rights Shocked
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Azura Dante
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-05-06 16:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Azura Dante
Missive Ernaga wrote:
Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.

There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. It's not like CCP advertises that their servers will be on 23/7 all day every day.


EULA's do not overwrite law, infact it's the otherway around :)

It will always be down to fair practice. An hour a day down (during GMT offpeak) would never be considered or a downtime related to patching etc that may take 4 hours.

Now if you were darkfall online where the servers can go down for multiple hours during peek hours, multiple times a week, then this type of scenario would like be applicable :)
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