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New Freighter

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quoOoup
#41 - 2013-05-07 14:51:35 UTC
Alphaphi wrote:
''make it easier for people like me'' what do you mean exactly? ''people like me'' that have a freighter, that have a orca and for that sake larger ships that actually doesn't need that stepping stone?
yes, the freighting system works fine, but there's still a gap which pretty much ''forces'' you to train a ship of a other class/role (imagine being forced to train in to a guardian in order to fly a Hictor, a ship with a whole other design in mind) in order to get something better that's ''in between''. as someone proposed, remaking the deep space transports would actually work fairly well, especially because the role they have now, are in no way being pulled off correct.


i wouldn't argue for a bigger ship.


Please explain, why you are forced "to train a ship of a other class/role", if you really need that cargo?
I don't get it!
Alphaphi
KASK Heavy logistics
#42 - 2013-05-07 15:02:47 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
Alphaphi wrote:
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
If the ship was not designed o do freighting? Why did CCP gave them a big cargo hangar of above 90k m3? Why not just a 40k Corporate Hangar, an 90k Ore Hangar (dep. on skill level) and a 2k cargo hangar? This would have made btw. anything much more easier for the job of being a mining director? Blink

Why did CCP made the Corporate Hangar unscannable? To protect the ore? HAHA Lol They changed this now in favour of Blockade Runners to give them a usage next to low-sec travelling. But why did they so when they designed the Orca?

Why can you tank an Orca higher than a freighter? To protect ore worth a 20 or 30M ISK? HAHA. Lol


they gave the orca a large cargohold in conjunction with the fleet refitting feature, it's meant as a mobile base/hauler/booster, so the thought was that the orca would carry all extra gear, crystals etc. for the whole fleet.



Sorry to be rude now, but this is complete bullshit. 90k m3 for fitting gears?
When you have to dock anyway every 10-30 minutes depending on size of mining fleet?
When every mining vessel has his own hangar with enough space (pre-mining-barge patch and now!) for fitting tools?

you are going silly now sir! Honestly. Doesn't make sense to discuss with you any further as you are going crazy and use totally absurd arguments just to try to defend your senseless position.


cargo used on gear are cargo that could have been ore.
frankly, it's the truth, they gave the orca that cargohold so it could carry around gear for a whole fleet, the key word is FLEET, and here i quote the orca itself ''to all sizes of operations and needs'' so that cargo is not only for a small fleet, it could be a big fleet, people who live in wormholes, at a POS in lowsec, in nullsec.
frankly, it's only a 90k cargo, IF you decide to use your lows and rigs on cargo expansion. HINT HINT, WINK WINK: not everyone does this, some people tank their orca.
it's a command ship/operational platform. there's a reason why it have all the features it actually have (you know, the fact that you can refit your ships at it?)
that's the whole intention and design of it, that it actually ended up being used in a different manner, is a chapter for itself.

the mining fleets that i ran certainly had A LOT of spare crystals and gear hidden in the cargo, especially because i was the booster, not the hauler, so i did not return to the POS that often.
Tharin Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#43 - 2013-05-07 15:07:20 UTC
Ignoring that most of the thread has devolved into point-counterpoint: This is a gap that could be filled. Regular industrials cap at 40-50K m3. The Freighters start at 700K+ m3. There is a huuuuge gap in those numbers. The Orca isn't the answer; it's an answer, and not a good one. If you refer back to Ytterbium's ship skill devblog, large industrial command ships and freighters are in different career/ training paths. A reduced training time on the Orca doesn't make a hauler need Mining Director V any more than they did before.

I started as a miner, and have been skilling up to haul. I've started doing low-sec contracts in a Prowler. It pays crap so far, but it's much more exciting. I've made enough between that and mining to get the Freighter skill book. But I'd have to sell an organ or three to get the 1.5 billion for a Fenrir. All I can do is look longingly at all the 37k m3+ contracts and know it's going to be a very, very long time before I can even touch them. A Jump Freighter isn't even in the realm of possibility.

A Racial Light Freighter/Heavy Industrial that fits snugly in the middle of Racial Industrial and Racial Freighter would get me to hauling respectable amounts much quicker, without mortgaging myself to a corp ship program. 100K, 250K m3, with rigs calibration and slots (or skill bonuses to capacity, either way), better speed/agility than the freighter and worse than an industrial. 600-700 mill. Done. No drones, no links, no survey scanners, tractor beams, clone vat bays, etc. If the industrial is a pickup truck, and the freighter is a container ship, this would be a C5.

Imagine training up for a cruiser, enjoying using it, and looking up to the next ship in the line: a pirate battleship. Nothing in between. From a handful of millions to over a billion in a single step. That's a long way up for anyone.

There's a gap, it can be filled. End of line.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-05-07 15:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
Alphaphi wrote:
frankly, it's the truth, they gave the orca that cargohold so it could carry around gear for a whole fleet, the key word is FLEET


Oh good. I was afreid you have been using your orca to mine with their mining drones. Roll


Alphaphi wrote:
frankly, it's the truth, they gave the orca that cargohold so it could carry around


Yeah, you have to be right, because when roaming in lowsec and 0.0 I often meet fleets with an Orca in the middle.


Alphaphi wrote:
it could be a big fleet, people who live in wormholes, at a POS in lowsec, in nullsec.
frankly, some people tank their orca.


40k m3 for gears? Even this is ridiculous.


Alphaphi wrote:
it's a command ship/operational platform. there's a reason why it have all the features it actually have (you know, the fact that you can refit your ships at it?)


no really? You have been the one, who didn't know how to allgn with an Orca in 10seconds. Just to remind you about this. You may have forgotten who was not aware of the possibilities of an Orca!


[quote=Alphaphithe mining fleets that i ran certainly had A LOT of spare crystals and gear hidden in the cargo, especially because i was the booster, not the hauler, so i did not return to the POS that often.
[/quote]

wait.
You have been boosting with your Orca in the belt in lowsec / 0.0 / WH, not safely at the POS? You are the first one from which I heared this.
Your miners didn't carry his own crystals in their cargo hold? No of course this is senseless, because your reply implies that your mining fleet fire 40k m3 of T2 Crystal onto the asteroids within one mining operation.

I don't often use this phrase, but "I lol'ed so hard".
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#45 - 2013-05-07 16:51:02 UTC
Alphaphi wrote:


hmmm... are you trying to say that the orca is on par with a industrial in speeds?
let me see

Orca, all skills at 5, with nomads and evasive manoeuvring implant:

Speed 62m/sec, 25.7 sec align.
...

my beloved fenrir, with nomads and evasive manoeuvring implant:

speed 125m/sec, 24sec align.
...


lol, I'll race you. You in your Fenrir, I in my Orca (no (speed) implant). Amarr to Dodixie. Winner takes both ships
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-05-07 17:06:22 UTC
I agree, but mostly because skillwise, the orca has nothing to do with hauling.

The T1 + T2 industrials and freighters all require their racial industrial skill. Orcas on the other hand require mining barges V and mining foreman V, skills completely unrelated to hauling. The only reason it's concidered the middle ground between industrials and freighters is because it's the closest thing we got.
Celestarias
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-05-07 17:32:35 UTC
A modular Tech 3 Industrial would be a good addition to EVE.

While it's exceptionally rare to get totally screwed in a Blockade Runner, I'd still like the ability to spend double what a freighter costs (Or easily more) for the ability to have a modular Industrial.

Ability to fit: a Covops cloak/Ability to some measure of defense/Scanning ability/Gas Harvesting Bonus for offensive sub-systems.
Ability to fit: a racial buffer tank / a racial active tank / Warp Core defense +2 / Mining Link bonus for defensive sub-systems
Ability to fit: The same type of racial Engineering Sub-systems as existing Tech3s.
Ability to fit: Hacking Module Bonus / Increased CPU / Increased Salvaging Bonus / Cargo-hold bonus for Electronics sub-systems.
Ability to fit: Racial Prop mod bonus (Same as the existing Tech3s) / Bonus agility / Interdiction nullifcation / Black-ops level Jump drive? (This is probably breaching into the way unbalanced portion.)

This sort of thing could fill a multitude of roles that we're currently half-assing as players, with ships that aren't really designed for it. (We still don't have a really good gas-miner outside of the venture.) Plus it would actually slide into the notion Odyssey on the whole as we drift towards more exploration-based ideas. Living out of a single industrial would be a really cool notion for some players.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-05-07 17:48:35 UTC
While from a RP stand point I can agree a super 1 stop hauler with closely nuly and a tank would be very cool to live out of, the notion of a T3 hauler is a poor one.

Firstly Indy is the last class of hulls that need that kind of modular flexibility. My next point against is that it completely closes the niche for all other transports. To fill the "gap" we are discussing it would need to be in the 200+/- m3 range. Add to that cloak nul or even stabs and a tank and all transports are obsolete.

Finally, with such a slippery hull there will be very very low attrition of the class. It is damn hard to catch cloaky blockade runners let alone a cloak nuly one. And one with more carry than an orca is out of the question at any price.

Sorry. I just feel it would be far too "easy" to abuse such a hull and have terrible knock on effects.
Haulie Berry
#49 - 2013-05-07 18:00:16 UTC
Alphaphi wrote:


1. i never mentioned anything about warp speed, at all. but please enlighten me how you reach a alignspeed on 10 seconds, because a orca with 2x inertia stabs, nomad implants and evasive manoeuvring hardwire have 17 seconds of align on paper (25 without inertia stabs).


Dude: http://tinyurl.com/8hneway

Seriously, before you embarrass yourself any further, just... stop.
Chris Slayter
Perdition
#50 - 2013-05-07 19:04:51 UTC
Tharin Malkyre wrote:
There is a huuuuge gap in those numbers. The Orca isn't the answer; it's an answer, and not a good one.


Agreed 100%. While the Orca has the capability to fill in that gap, there certainly is room for a more specialised ship class. I fail to see why there is so much 'hate' against the proposed new ship class. Orca would still be king for mining logistics and freighters king of m³.
To me, adding new content that fills a gap between two ship classes while existing content remains viable equals adding more variety to the game. Sure, there may be more important things to be added/changed first, but why not introduce mini-freighters one day?

Oh and btw:

Quote:

1. i never mentioned anything about warp speed, at all. but please enlighten me how you reach a alignspeed on 10 seconds, because a orca with 2x inertia stabs, nomad implants and evasive manoeuvring hardwire have 17 seconds of align on paper (25 without inertia stabs).


MWD.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2013-05-07 19:42:07 UTC
Nagnor wrote:
Alphaphi wrote:


hmmm... are you trying to say that the orca is on par with a industrial in speeds?
let me see

Orca, all skills at 5, with nomads and evasive manoeuvring implant:

Speed 62m/sec, 25.7 sec align.
...

my beloved fenrir, with nomads and evasive manoeuvring implant:

speed 125m/sec, 24sec align.
...


lol, I'll race you. You in your Fenrir, I in my Orca (no (speed) implant). Amarr to Dodixie. Winner takes both ships


My money is on Nagnor.. with bad skills, no implants or inertia stabs, etc my hauler aligns and warps in 10sec's from stationary.. ie after a gate jump...
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#52 - 2013-05-07 23:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nagnor
Cage Man wrote:
Nagnor wrote:
Alphaphi wrote:


hmmm... are you trying to say that the orca is on par with a industrial in speeds?
let me see

Orca, all skills at 5, with nomads and evasive manoeuvring implant:

Speed 62m/sec, 25.7 sec align.
...

my beloved fenrir, with nomads and evasive manoeuvring implant:

speed 125m/sec, 24sec align.
...


lol, I'll race you. You in your Fenrir, I in my Orca (no (speed) implant). Amarr to Dodixie. Winner takes both ships


My money is on Nagnor.. with bad skills, no implants or inertia stabs, etc my hauler aligns and warps in 10sec's from stationary.. ie after a gate jump...

Inertia stabs? Are you nuts?? I value my current configuration (200k EHP, 3.2 AU/s and 83k m3 cargo with not maxed skills) a lot more than the couple of seconds I could scrap of my station undock- warp time. Which btw is now also 25 sec.

The only thing I don't like is that separation between regular cargohold and Fleet Hangar. Why do we need that? It lost its purpose when Fleet Hangar became scanable and its access easier to maintain (also in space)
Death ToU
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-05-08 00:12:41 UTC
Just contract it all to Red Frog.. Have fun doing something else..
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-05-08 07:59:56 UTC
Death ToU wrote:
Just contract it all to Red Frog.. Have fun doing something else..
Lol I use Black Frog.
quoOoup
#55 - 2013-05-08 10:16:16 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
I agree, but mostly because skillwise, the orca has nothing to do with hauling.

The T1 + T2 industrials and freighters all require their racial industrial skill. Orcas on the other hand require mining barges V and mining foreman V, skills completely unrelated to hauling. The only reason it's concidered the middle ground between industrials and freighters is because it's the closest thing we got.


This is simply wrong. Mining Barges V will not longer be needed, after Odyssey - as i mentioned some posts before ...
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-05-08 11:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
quoOoup wrote:


This is simply wrong. Mining Barges V will not longer be needed, after Odyssey - as i mentioned some posts before ...
True, but Mining Director Level I and Mining Foreman Level V are still required.


Also,...


"Another point we are not fond of is the over-redundant training needed for specialization. Still looking at the tree above, some tech 2 ships require sets of skills that are not relevant to the hull you are specializing into. Notorious example is the Absolution, the Amarr Field Command Ship, with forces training of Heavy Assault Ships, itself demanding Assault Ships to be learned. While we are fine with time sinks, they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in."
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-05-08 12:44:00 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
quoOoup wrote:


This is simply wrong. Mining Barges V will not longer be needed, after Odyssey - as i mentioned some posts before ...
True, but Mining Director Level I and Mining Foreman Level V are still required.


But nevertheless it's matching exactly what have been asked for for a "mid-sized" ship.

skill time for

Small industrial (T1) - not even worth to mention (33min)
Medium industrial (Orca) approx. 17 days
Large industrial (Freighter) approx. 35 days

Why the hell is it such a big problem to cross skill 4-5 days leadership skills, which are mandatory for the primary role of the Orca.

Those cross-skills you can find quite often and sometimes they make more sense than other sides. But this is up to CCPs decision as there are other things to factor in.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-05-08 18:54:16 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
...Medium industrial (Orca) approx. 17 days


Why the hell is it such a big problem to cross skill....
Mining skills aren't really related to hauling skills. We will see where CCP goes with the T1s. After that... Question


"While we are fine with time sinks, they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in."
Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#59 - 2013-05-08 19:17:32 UTC
It's basically impossible to lose a jump freighter if you fly it safely.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-05-09 00:43:05 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
I think it is a good idea to have something that is non capital between the orca, which isn't really a hauler, and a freighter. A JF without the skill requirements and a jump drive that is more agile than a freighter. Make it modular so you can either have a large cargo hold or a ship maint bay that can hold maybe a BS and a salvager...

I'd like to be able to shift a couple BS's so a decent maint bay would be nice.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.