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Warfare & Tactics

 
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So the pendulum is swinging back?

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kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2013-05-14 21:22:30 UTC
People need to stop being such crybabies. In reality FW is only ever going to be as good as your opponents.
Sure killing a T1 frig in a hookbill while you have OGB and a head full of snakes might make some feel very manly and cause them to prance around pretending to be PvP god. In the end that must get boring ( some individuals exlcuded).
Both sides are required for a good fight and fun PvP.
Amarr have had it easy, usually minmatar would show up. If there were to many they would dock up or ship up. Now they will have to roam looking for a fight. It will just take some getting used too for both sides.

In the end, you are about to find out that having 1000s of farmers on your side is neither fun nor desirable.

Anyway Amarr and Minmatar need each other. So limit yourself to some petty smacktalk and get past any butthurtious you might be suffering from. This goes for everyone who wants to PvP in FW.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#142 - 2013-05-14 21:23:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Since you claim plexing is a pvp mechanic you would think that the time of gallentes plexing push November and December would show higher kills for gallente than the January and February (when the plexing push ended).

But the November and December killboards are lower than the January and February killboards for the gallente corps I checked. For example, 2900 kills for qcats in november and december versus 5200 for january and february. Your corp 2700 for november and december and 4000 for january and february.


Decembers usually a drier time for everyone in eve with people in the holiday season and all that

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-05-14 21:28:49 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
People need to stop being such crybabies. In reality FW is only ever going to be as good as your opponents.
Sure killing a T1 frig in a hookbill while you have OGB and a head full of snakes might make some feel very manly and cause them to prance around pretending to be PvP god. In the end that must get boring ( some individuals exlcuded).
Both sides are required for a good fight and fun PvP.
Amarr have had it easy, usually minmatar would show up. If there were to many they would dock up or ship up. Now they will have to roam looking for a fight. It will just take some getting used too for both sides.

In the end, you are about to find out that having 1000s of farmers on your side is neither fun nor desirable.

Anyway Amarr and Minmatar need each other. So limit yourself to some petty smacktalk and get past any butthurtious you might be suffering from. This goes for everyone who wants to PvP in FW.


Somehow there is a lot of truth here.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Almity
In Exile.
#144 - 2013-05-14 21:42:49 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
When we started pressing systems our pvp dropped substantially.


And Minmatar kills skyrocketed when the Amarr started pushing. It's almost as if going on the offensive requires taking more risks with your ships than sitting in one system farming kills.



The biggest difference is lack of fleeting while doing an organized push. Before I would run a few fleets a week minimum and get some bigger fights. That's more kills and some fun pvp. While plexing a cluster or two, if the wt don't show up you just spin a button.

We had more large gang action and more random wt fleets passing through our old home than we do when we chose to take metro. It has less to do with offensive plexing push and more to do with the lack of a reason to stop us.

And we did push a home system. We forced Electus Matari from their home and made another alliance quit FW. The problem with that was they were Russian and Euro TZ so we were plexing against a clock not against enemy fleets.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#145 - 2013-05-14 22:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Juan Rayo wrote:
yes Cearain, to determine pvp as related to plexing we should look at the KB of the farmers that always run, instead at the killboards of the pvpers involved.



I recomend people look at those who most successfully plex if they want to win the sov war. The best information we have about who had the biggest impact on the fw sov map is the list of players who gain the most vp per day. It would be better if they included the cross plexing vp in this as well, but they don't, so this is the best data we have.

These characters might farm lp. On the other hand, they might get very little lp, if they are defensive plexing home systems. But just to automatically say you know everyone who is having the biggest impact on the sov war is a farmer is jumping to conclusions.

I don't necessarilly think they are mostly farmers. I think they are mostly rabbits and the killboards clearly support this, but we don't have enough data to conclude they are farmers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#146 - 2013-05-14 22:16:00 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Change your emo all caps "AND" to an "or" and I think I would agree.


Cearain wrote:

Since you claim plexing is a pvp mechanic you would think that the time of gallentes plexing push November and December would show higher kills for gallente than the January and February (when the plexing push ended).

But the November and December killboards are lower than the January and February killboards for the gallente corps I checked. For example, 2900 kills for qcats in november and december versus 5200 for january and february. Your corp 2700 for november and december and 4000 for january and february.


I take it that you agree that Gallente (not you) can win the Sov war AND get fights (lots of them).

Otherwise you wouldn't be attempting to claim that a corporation that gets 2700 to 2900 kills over a two month period is not getting fights.

The only lack of fights we got during the sov push was when the Caldari decided to not fight (Southern Placid, OMS). In that sense you're right. Winning convincingly helps the other side "decide to do something more fun."



Yes your corp got some kills. I wasn't claiming they got absolutely no kills in that time. RollBut Gallente had substantially fewer kills during the 2 month push to win soveriegnty than they had in the 2 months immediately after. They sacrificed pvp in order to orbit buttons. Once the push was over they could get back to pvping as normal.

This along with the data of who is getting the most vp per day should convince any reasonable person that sov in faction war is most efficiently won by forgoing pvp.

And I never claimed I could win the sov war. I would never even attempt it, with these mechanics. It's like asking me if I could run 1000 fw missions in a stealth bomber before some other player. Once ccp makes fw sov a pvp game, then I will try to win. Until then I don't know or care who is winning.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#147 - 2013-05-14 22:29:23 UTC
Cearain wrote:
And I never claimed I could win the sov war. I would never even attempt it, with these mechanics.

Well we did. AND we got massive amount of pvp too. Kind of ruins your thesis, but I'm sure that won't stop you from posting.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#148 - 2013-05-14 22:40:15 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
And I never claimed I could win the sov war. I would never even attempt it, with these mechanics.

Well we did. AND we got massive amount of pvp too. Kind of ruins your thesis, but I'm sure that won't stop you from posting.



Now now, don't encourage him.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#149 - 2013-05-14 22:46:54 UTC
Super Chair wrote:

Now now, don't encourage him.

Now we know why Amarrian Vengeance is kicking ass. They got Super Chair. Hey is that a JUSTK T-Shirt you're wearing under your jacket?
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#150 - 2013-05-14 22:55:03 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
People need to stop being such crybabies. In reality FW is only ever going to be as good as your opponents.


Finally, some true wisdom in this thread.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#151 - 2013-05-14 22:58:09 UTC
Cearain wrote:
They sacrificed pvp in order to orbit buttons. Once the push was over they could get back to pvping as normal.


While this has some truth to it - a lot of pvp after that came from frantically defending systems from people trying to plex it. In the months after the push, I didn't get more kills so much because I stopped orbiting buttons and just looked for fights - I got more kills because so many people were trying to plex my home systems (Nisuwa and Notoras are both strategic systems to hold) that I had a CONSTANT flow of targets to fight just to maintain control of the systems (In fact, I had a night where I did nothing but fight for about 8 hours straight into the wee hour sof the morning, no break whatsoever).

And those targets came for the LP, because the home systems were the only systems left to plex.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#152 - 2013-05-14 23:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
cearain wrote:
Yes your corp got some kills. I wasn't claiming they got absolutely no kills in that time. RollBut Gallente had substantially fewer kills during the 2 month push to win soveriegnty than they had in the 2 months immediately after.



I think youl find alot more people joined the caldari after they got steamrolled like evoke and cal mil alliances who left for a while because they were kicked outa there homes. Who made a big push at first and gallentes fought them all so more targets = more kill mails simple maths

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#153 - 2013-05-14 23:30:32 UTC
Almity wrote:


The biggest difference is lack of fleeting while doing an organized push. Before I would run a few fleets a week minimum and get some bigger fights. That's more kills and some fun pvp.

That's a problem of expectations, though. Fleet/Large gang warfare has always been almost totally irrelevant to post-Inferno FW, which I'm pretty sure is by design.

Quote:

And we did push a home system. We forced Electus Matari from their home and made another alliance quit FW. The problem with that was they were Russian and Euro TZ so we were plexing against a clock not against enemy fleets.

That's not a problem with FW mechanics. There's nothing you can do about that short of moving to Europe.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#154 - 2013-05-14 23:53:51 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
They sacrificed pvp in order to orbit buttons. Once the push was over they could get back to pvping as normal.


While this has some truth to it - a lot of pvp after that came from frantically defending systems from people trying to plex it. In the months after the push, I didn't get more kills so much because I stopped orbiting buttons and just looked for fights - I got more kills because so many people were trying to plex my home systems (Nisuwa and Notoras are both strategic systems to hold) that I had a CONSTANT flow of targets to fight just to maintain control of the systems (In fact, I had a night where I did nothing but fight for about 8 hours straight into the wee hour sof the morning, no break whatsoever).

And those targets came for the LP, because the home systems were the only systems left to plex.


Couple of questions:

When you say they came for the lp because the home systems were the only systems left to plex about how many systems were left to plex?

How is notoras a strategic system to hold?

Would it be fair to say you just entered plexes for the fights and stopped trying to actually wait the timer out?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#155 - 2013-05-14 23:58:08 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
cearain wrote:
Yes your corp got some kills. I wasn't claiming they got absolutely no kills in that time. RollBut Gallente had substantially fewer kills during the 2 month push to win soveriegnty than they had in the 2 months immediately after.



I think youl find alot more people joined the caldari after they got steamrolled like evoke and cal mil alliances who left for a while because they were kicked outa there homes. Who made a big push at first and gallentes fought them all so more targets = more kill mails simple maths



XG was the one who said to look at december. So I did.

Now you are trying to explain things away by saying everyone was on holiday in december. And your claiming the caldari numbers were much higher in january and february than they were in november and december.

Do you have any source to substantiate that later claim?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#156 - 2013-05-15 00:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
And I never claimed I could win the sov war. I would never even attempt it, with these mechanics.

Well we did. AND we got massive amount of pvp too. Kind of ruins your thesis, but I'm sure that won't stop you from posting.




After you stopped your fw sov push your corp got about a 50% increase in pvp. Qcats got about an 80% increase in pvp. Kind of proves my point.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#157 - 2013-05-15 01:26:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
And I never claimed I could win the sov war. I would never even attempt it, with these mechanics.

Well we did. AND we got massive amount of pvp too. Kind of ruins your thesis, but I'm sure that won't stop you from posting.

After you stopped your fw sov push your corp got about a 50% increase in pvp. Qcats got about an 80% increase in pvp. Kind of proves my point.

Actually it doesn't.
1. You haven't conquered an entire warzone with your pvp-free afk plexing alt fleet, and you never will.
2. We conquered the entire warzone AND got massive numbers of kills. Not an "OR" thing, but an "AND" thing.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#158 - 2013-05-15 01:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Cearain wrote:
Couple of questions:

When you say they came for the lp because the home systems were the only systems left to plex about how many systems were left to plex?



Systems that weren't vulnerable (since they are the only ones that give LP) I'd say we were down to about 10?

Cearain wrote:

How is notoras a strategic system to hold?


Due to the docking restrictions we have a strong home base advantage. Without Notoras, the closest system to reship in is two jumps away in Tama, with long warps. Additionally, Tama has a terrible undock and a LOT of pirate activity, so after that the closest systems to base in to assault Nisuwa are three jumps away.

Cearain wrote:

Would it be fair to say you just entered plexes for the fights and stopped trying to actually wait the timer out?


No - I have three accounts total, and sometimes I'd have two alts sitting in different plexes spinning down buttons while I fought/chased people around so that every second of the US TZ could be utilitized to keep our systems hitting stable every night.
Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#159 - 2013-05-15 03:36:55 UTC
Cearain wrote:


How is notoras a strategic system to hold?



Only docking system near Nisuwa for several jumps... miners go there thinking it's safe to pve. (Ventures are worth some nice BC points.)

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#160 - 2013-05-15 05:04:25 UTC
Shadow Adanza wrote:
Cearain wrote:


How is notoras a strategic system to hold?



Only docking system near Nisuwa for several jumps... miners go there thinking it's safe to pve. (Ventures are worth some nice BC points.)


Confirming that BC points are a key component of metrics of corp success.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.