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What is the purpose of CSM?

First post
Author
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-05-06 00:44:17 UTC
What is the purpose of CSM?

I ask this question because I read the EVE Online Development Strategy (CSM Edition) that Alekseyev Karrde linked. I came away stunned.


"The goal is to tempt Potentials and Bittervets to subscribe, and to prevent Newbies and Veterans from unsubscribing. A significant challenge is..."
Newbies -- players with less than a year in the game. (70% Shiny, 30% Iteration)
Veterans -- players with more than a year in the game. (10% Shiny, 90% Iteration)


There is nothing in this document (which focused heavily on 0.0) that would make me subscribe or resubscribe (My two accounts are seven months and three months old.) There wasn't anything in there that any of my corp mates or Alliance members ever expressed concern over.There was nothing in there for the solo player, the casual player, or for the Highsec player.

The CSM can of course propose anything they wish, but to give a stated goal and to obviously miss... Frying Doom has said CSM 7 didn't communicate. I can't say if that is true or not, as I was too new to the game... I had all kinds of game issues to learn/worry about... but from the document linked, it makes me wonder if Newbies were consulted by the CSM on what 'tempted' them to resubscribe?

All this is from my perspective of course.
Highsec ( one toon trader and one toon Mission Runner)
Lowsec (three toon PI)
0.0 (one toon PvP)

tl;dr

What is the purpose of CSM? I have traded posts with a few of the incoming CSM candidate; and found them to be very knowledgeable, but no man or woman is an island.

Do you feel that the CSM purpose is to present to CCP with what you feel is best for the game or do you believe it would be helpful to seek out the opinion of the player base and add that to your proposals?

Thank you
dark heartt
#2 - 2013-05-06 02:14:06 UTC
They did get the opinions of the playerbase when they were voted in. The people who voted for them agreed with what they stood for and they will represent them as much as possible.

As far as representing new players, this year we have Ali who should do a fantastic job of that.

The document that you read was not aimed at you, but rather at CCP and released to the playerbase. The reason for the swing toward 0.0 is that they are currently in the need of the most iteration.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-05-06 02:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
The CSM is an insular popularity contest to select unpaid game consultants.

Anyone who talks about "representation" is utterly full of crap.

To be clear, this isn't a criticism. I think the CSM is a great PR tool, is mutually beneficial to CCP and the kinds of people who care enough to run, and it adds fun content for the kinds of turbonerds who care enough about a game to actually read the forums.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Frying Doom
#4 - 2013-05-06 03:59:08 UTC
What is the CSM wrote:
The Scope of the CSM

The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the “greatest good for the greater player base”. The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. It is important to keep in mind that the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP.

CSM White Paper wrote:
The CSM is a “flat” organization, and Officers do not have special powers, only additional responsibilities. The responsibilities of the Chairman and Vice-Chairman are to handle official communications between the CSM and CCP, and they are expected to be particularly active in interacting with the community. The responsibilities of the Secretary and Vice-Secretary are related to the production of official CSM publications such as the CSM Summit Minutes. Thus, CSM Officers are expected to be the most active members of the CSM.

Thus the CSM is to act as the voice of the player base and determine if any alterations to be made to the game will be for “greatest good for the greater player base”.

They are also there to relay our feelings towards game design to CCP and keep the player base as informed as possible.

While the CSM is now made up from 10 Null sec members as well as 2 Wormhole candidates and given that Null is in an awful state, it is their job to evaluate any change in relation to the player base as a whole and not just those who voted for them. This I will admit must be one of the hardest parts of their job as the people who voted for them especially in CSM8 are the minorities and not the majority of the game, that has little or nothing to do with the forums, emails sent to them or surveys that they could complete.

As to CSM7 yes they did fail to communicate effectively and regularly with the player base, a fact repeated by almost every candidate for the CSM8 elections. I will admit it is my hope that CSM8 do better than CSM7 or even CSM6 in communicating with the player base, using these very forums as the primary point of contact. For example, if they go on a pod-cast, post a link in Jita Park, same if they post on reddit, The Mittani.com and any where else so that it is possible for people to easily find the information or even better have a specific website address where people can go to for example csm8.eveonline.com

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-06 04:54:16 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
They did get the opinions of the playerbase when they were voted in. The people who voted for them agreed with what they stood for and they will represent them as much as possible.

As far as representing new players, this year we have Ali who should do a fantastic job of that.

The document that you read was not aimed at you, but rather at CCP and released to the playerbase. The reason for the swing toward 0.0 is that they are currently in the need of the most iteration.
It isn't of question of voting...

It isn't a question of these were good ideas...

But in their stated goals: "The goal is to tempt Potentials and Bittervets to subscribe, and to prevent Newbies and Veterans from unsubscribing. A significant challenge is..." I am sure when they drew it up the truly believed in it; and that it would lead to greater retention of newer players, but as one of those newer players.... it is a complete flop.

Either the stated goals were just a cover to push their ideas or they thought that these were issue of concern to newer players... that affected their decision to resubscribe.


I was wonder what process the incoming CSM would use during their term.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#6 - 2013-05-06 07:26:06 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
The CSM is an insular...


This one won't be.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2013-05-06 07:44:33 UTC
Interestingly enough, we're already subscribed and the CSM does not have a budget to conduct polling on non-EVE playing people around the world to figure out what would make them pick up an EVE account.

The document the OP references was based on our combined years experience seeing EVE expansions which were successful and those which were not. As i said, no polling budget so the percentages are not supposed to be exact and I'm not sure why you would assume they would be. Specific expansion examples using the approach we advocated were designed based on our experience/game knowledge, things we hear players get excited about or complain about, and things players had told us was important to them.

There were three expansion ideas within that document all of which touched multiple game areas and play styles while addressing longstanding (and far reaching) design issues in the game. But unfortunately you can't please or represent everyone at the same time. We had around 4 days to put that document together, the mere undertaking of which we weren't allowed to tell anyone else about. Not exactly the conditions to run a focus group ;)

I suggest you and your alliance be proactive engaging with your CSM8 representatives to make sure they know what's important to you. This is doubly true if the Strategy Document didn't cover your niche playstyle.

You can't be heard if you don't speak.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-05-06 10:51:54 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Interestingly enough, we're already subscribed and the CSM does not have a budget to conduct polling on non-EVE playing people around the world to figure out what would make them pick up an EVE account.

The document the OP references was based on our combined years experience seeing EVE expansions which were successful and those which were not. As i said, no polling budget so the percentages are not supposed to be exact and I'm not sure why you would assume they would be. Specific expansion examples using the approach we advocated were designed based on our experience/game knowledge, things we hear players get excited about or complain about, and things players had told us was important to them.

There were three expansion ideas within that document all of which touched multiple game areas and play styles while addressing longstanding (and far reaching) design issues in the game. But unfortunately you can't please or represent everyone at the same time. We had around 4 days to put that document together, the mere undertaking of which we weren't allowed to tell anyone else about. Not exactly the conditions to run a focus group ;)

I suggest you and your alliance be proactive engaging with your CSM8 representatives to make sure they know what's important to you. This is doubly true if the Strategy Document didn't cover your niche playstyle.

You can't be heard if you don't speak.
Interesting response. If this was for me, you seem to have jumped to a lot of conclusion... based on nothing I posted.

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-05-06 10:56:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
The CSM is an insular...


This one won't be.

I can not say if CSM 7 was or wasn't insular, but I don't believe CSM 8 will be.

Frying Doom
#10 - 2013-05-06 11:22:51 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
The CSM is an insular...


This one won't be.

I can not say if CSM 7 was or wasn't insular, but I don't believe CSM 8 will be.


You mean I have to put my iron nails and lumber away for the moment.

Cry

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-05-06 11:25:58 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
The CSM is an insular...


This one won't be.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2981384#post2981384
Malcanis wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I want this, not because it's a "reward" (I'm not sure it's going to incentivise many to actually vote) but because it will be useful to the CSM itself..


How?


So we know whether we're reading a post made by a voter.


"We won't be insular, we just want to be able to separate voters from non-voters"

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-05-06 11:27:00 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
The CSM is an insular...


This one won't be.

I can not say if CSM 7 was or wasn't insular, but I don't believe CSM 8 will be.


You mean I have to put my iron nails and lumber away for the moment.

Cry

Lol Well, keep them handy just in case.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-05-06 15:59:38 UTC
You are taking one quote and running with it, maybe some other quotes will give you a wider idea of what thre csm has been

Quote:
CCP Solomon – Technical Producer

Since its inception, the CSM has gone through significant change both in the quality of its interactions with CCP and its value as perceived by the player base. Initially, it’s fair to say there was doubt in the community as to whether this player elected group was really capable of affecting change within CCP and bringing about the fixes the players were asking for. Let me make it clear; the passion, insistence, dedication and sheer pig-headed stubbornness of this group has had a significant impact on what we develop and how we develop it. Many of the changes in Retribution and again in Odyssey were a direct result of interactions, community feedback and suggestions from CSM 7. Whether it’s the changes to Factional Warfare, ship balancing, war declarations or the upcoming starbase quality of life fixes, the feedback and sanity checking has been beyond compare . CSM 7 represents a huge leap forward in keeping the concerns of the player base at the forefront, they have brought about change, worked damned hard and you should buy them all a beer.



source

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#14 - 2013-05-06 16:41:57 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:


"We won't be insular, we just want to be able to separate voters from non-voters"


I think "distinguish" might be a better term.

Incidentally, The Mittani was very specific and open about his intentiion to only represent the people who voted for him. How do you feel about that?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-05-06 16:48:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Incidentally, The Mittani was very specific and open about his intentiion to only represent the people who voted for him. How do you feel about that?


And do you think that attitude endeared him or the CSM to the "unrepresented" or non-voting masses?


Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-05-06 18:18:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I think "distinguish" might be a better term.

Incidentally, The Mittani was very specific and open about his intentiion to only represent the people who voted for him. How do you feel about that?


And why, pray tell, would you care to "distinguish" between the two if not to treat them differently?

Nothing wrong at all with being insular if that's the way you want to go. Talking about being open and then acting insular is another thing entirely, though.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-05-06 18:31:20 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Nothing wrong at all with being insular if that's the way you want to go. Talking about being open and then acting insular is another thing entirely, though.


Yup.

I think a more open and communicative CSM is exactly the way to go if you want more and broader participation in elections. Making people who didn't vote, for any number of possible reasons, effectively second class citizens on the forums is an awful way to go about it.

That said, I'm actually all for an insular CSM full of turbonerd representatives who will almost all be drawn from communities and playstyles that I agree and jive with, so I should be encouraging people to shoot their own foot off with this terrible idea.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-05-07 04:01:46 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
The CSM is an insular...


This one won't be.

I can not say if CSM 7 was or wasn't insular, but I don't believe CSM 8 will be.


You mean I have to put my iron nails and lumber away for the moment.

Cry


Use 'em for yourself. Might be difficult, but you're a driven, motivated individual. I'm sure you'll manage.



Anyway, with regards to that strategy document the CSM came up with - which yes, given the circumstances of its creation as Aleks described almost can't help but be colored by the largely bittervet and nullsec focused nature of CSM7 - what's even more important than what the CSM said in it is how CCP reacted to it (or started talking in its wake which may or may not have been prompted by it). CCP Seagull talks about classifying players in a very different way than the document, for example, not as high/low/nullsec/wspace players, but "enablers" and "instigators" and such. And on top of that, there's their own development strategy that tries to build expansions to give things for all those types of players, rather than the old style of things that did tend to focus more on high/low/null or what have you.

It's pretty important, the focus on classifying players especially, because while the needs of the classifications CCP started using may differ in the various areas of space (often, I'd say, as a matter of scale), the base needs are pretty similar.


In any case, to more broadly address your original question, our role is to be player representatives. You are absolutely right, though, that no person is an island, and I'm well aware that my perspective on what's wrong (or right) with the game may well not match your perspective. In this specific instance, I haven't been as young as you are in a godawful long time, although Ali Aras is very close. Her insight will be valuable. If I don't really know about something, though, I'm not mind readers, so if you're happy to talk, I'm happy to listen, and I think quite a few others on CSM8 are as well. Evemail is my preferred medium.

Just, you know, keep it reasonable, and civil, and rational and such. I may not always agree with something but I'm more willing to listen if it's presented well. If I want insane ravings, there are plenty of places I can get it already. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-05-07 07:15:37 UTC
mynnna wrote:
...In any case, to more broadly address your original question, our role is to be player representatives. You are absolutely right, though, that no person is an island, and I'm well aware that my perspective on what's wrong (or right) with the game may well not match your perspective. In this specific instance, I haven't been as young as you are in a godawful long time, although Ali Aras is very close. Her insight will be valuable. If I don't really know about something, though, I'm not mind readers, so if you're happy to talk, I'm happy to listen, and I think quite a few others on CSM8 are as well. Evemail is my preferred medium.

Just, you know, keep it reasonable, and civil, and rational and such. I may not always agree with something but I'm more willing to listen if it's presented well. If I want insane ravings, there are plenty of places I can get it already...
Thank you for your response.

After reading EVE Online Development Strategy (CSM Edition), which had lots of very good and important idea, I came away with the impression that they had not consulted with any 'new players'... with regards to player retention. Alekseyev Karrde indicated that was true and gave good reasons why it wasn't or couldn't be done. I understand, however...

Veteran long term players are uniquely unqualified by their experiences in this area of EvE. Let me explain, veteran long term players have found in the game the features they enjoy, which keeps them a part of EvE. Other who have left the game could either not find those feature or didn't enjoy them. I am a new player and have found features that keep me in the game... why others quit... what they couldn't find what they were looking for... doesn't come from my experience, but only through communicating with them.

It has been claimed that CSM 7 didn't communicate to the players (which I don't know if it is true or not), but on this issue they didn't need to communicate their action to the players, but to actively seek out those who are leaving. Find their reasoning. The CSM shouldn't consist of one direction communication it some instances it should be bilateral.

Note: A lot of the candidates that I thought were knowledgeable and would make good CSM members had virtual locks on CSM slots...including you (You were on my ballot, just not at the top... please don't tell anyone I voted for a Goonswarm Federation member... actually I had two on my ballot What?) My first pick however, was Ali Aras for one reason: She quit the game and then return to it full of passion. This is something unique that I felt would be beneficial to CSM 8.

tl;dr

I hope that CSM 8 not only communicates to the player base what CCP is thinking/planning, but also accept input from the player base when it is appropriate. I personally believe you will.