These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Are railguns really that bad?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Whitehound
#121 - 2013-07-06 14:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
He's also counting heat an drugs as if its a regular thing you can rely on 100% of the time. And also +5% implants are not worth risking for most people

Of course it is BS. Why do you even argue?! Lol

He is full of it. He would have tried to kite a 40-man fleet with the Oracle, not caring for e-war and logis, and after 3 minutes of trying to shoot E-Uni frigates would have popped, because this is when his cap and attention runs out, and not cared for the loss.

It needs a strategy and he only knows one. Do not blame him for it. He is only having fun.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#122 - 2013-07-06 15:13:19 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
He's also counting heat an drugs as if its a regular thing you can rely on 100% of the time. And also +5% implants are not worth risking for most people

Of course it is BS. Why do you even argue?! Lol

He is full of it. He would have tried to kite a 40-man fleet with the Oracle, not caring for e-war and logis, and after 3 minutes of trying to shoot E-Uni frigates would have popped, because this is when his cap and attention runs out, and not cared for the loss.

It needs a strategy and he only knows one. Do not blame him for it. He is only having fun.


Like I said When i get home I will post some FRAPS of hatchery doing just that, and killing everything or forcing the enemy off the field. a 40 man fleet stands no chance against what our 5/8 man gang can do.

Whitehound you have not even had a kill in eve online. Please stop telling me what is and what is not possible.
Whitehound
#123 - 2013-07-06 15:42:05 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Like I said When i get home I will post some FRAPS of hatchery doing just that, and killing everything or forcing the enemy off the field. a 40 man fleet stands no chance against what our 5/8 man gang can do.

Whitehound you have not even had a kill in eve online. Please stop telling me what is and what is not possible.

Unless your videos have anything to do with the subject do I not know why I want to watch any of your videos. Why do you not row back a little and stop telling us what is and is not possible?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-07-06 17:41:48 UTC
Perhaps because you called him out as a BS'er who is useless and he believes able to prove you wrong?

Just a thought, maybe you might learn something, never know.
Whitehound
#125 - 2013-07-06 19:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Perhaps because you called him out as a BS'er who is useless and he believes able to prove you wrong?

Just a thought, maybe you might learn something, never know.

He would first have to start using railguns or beam lasers. All he is saying is that he is good with short range turrets and has worked out a strategy to maximise their use. This is all fine and good, but it has very little to do with the subject. All that is coming from him is the same argument, that he can use short range turrets. Frankly, what he is proving is that he does not understand the use of long range turrets. Attempts to point it out to him go past his head like a Frisbee and only gets answered with further nonsense. If you think this is not a load of BS that he is dumping into the thread then tell us what it is.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-07-06 19:40:07 UTC
His point was a simple one. LR weapons suck if one can bring "SR" weapons to bear at such ranges so effectively.

It's an arguement with merit, if true. So lets await the videos.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#127 - 2013-07-06 20:05:31 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
His point was a simple one. LR weapons suck if one can bring "SR" weapons to bear at such ranges so effectively.

It's an arguement with merit, if true. So lets await the videos.


Ok so its giong to be about another 5 or so hours before I am home, and can upload the fraps of this fight. But here ist he BR

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=14488356

This was a fight designed around getting CVA to come and fight us. They brought a fleet into system, and we engaged. They had a lot more on the field (as the FRAPS will show, BR doesn't show all of their logi back bone. Funny enoug, our oracles just punched through their reps.) But we decimated them with our long range oracles (simmilar to the ones i posted earlier.) Take special note of all the SB kills, and the Black birds. Notice that we have oracles basically one shotting, and killing things as fast as they could lock them. As I said earlier, the oracle is truely there to one shot Ewar cruisers / recons. The reason why I will never use long range turrets, is because you can abuse the significantly increased DPS and tracking of short ranged Pulse lases to a much greater effect. Lastly a platform like the oracle, can nano effectively and be able to do more on field, than warp in- shoot once, warp out. This allows the oracles more freedom to adapt to quickly changing targets / fleet warps, in ways snipers never can.

Because of this Oracles are provided more real DPS on target, and are much more effective in fighting varied fleet comps.
Whitehound
#128 - 2013-07-06 20:27:01 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
His point was a simple one. LR weapons suck if one can bring "SR" weapons to bear at such ranges so effectively.

It's an arguement with merit, if true. So lets await the videos.

No, his point was a dumb one. Long range turrets can easily hit out to 200km to 250km. He knows it and still is he telling people that one can shoot with Pulse Lasers out to 76km. If this is not BS then maybe it is ADD. Whatever you want to call it, it is simply not the topic.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-07-06 20:33:40 UTC
And you know as well as anyone else (or should) that kind of engagement range is a running joke due to on grid probing.

Congratulations: you can shoot further than anyone else, for about 30-90 seconds, then they're all up on your face, giving you the good news.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2013-07-06 20:41:19 UTC
boost my eagle/ferox^^
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#131 - 2013-07-06 20:47:51 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
And you know as well as anyone else (or should) that kind of engagement range is a running joke due to on grid probing.

Congratulations: you can shoot further than anyone else, for about 30-90 seconds, then they're all up on your face, giving you the good news.


You will note, looking at the BR, that there was actually a few long range 'sniper' Tier 3 setups, that died to our oracle guns. The threads OP topic was about railguns. Where I stated that MED rails are a horrible weapon system, and that 'Long Range' turrets in general are sub par in almost all situations (Barring huge fleet fights) Than regular Short ranged weapon systems. I find that many people try and site the need for all of this increased range. that somehow shooting at 250 Kilometers is somehow superior. In reality, shooting that far is really pointless. There is no way that you can nano / move around to get in range to point your targets (Ie. they can just warp away) and secondly the tracking / DPS application applied to most targets is simply abysmal.

Coupled with the huge amount of fitting room these weapons require, and you are left with a ship that is unable to do anything well. The second a ship starts burning at you, your forced to warp out or die in a fire. With the recent changes to probing in the new expansion, probing has become easier than ever before.

Because of all these combined factors, a sniper ship is going to be spending more time warping in and out of a fight. At that point, why are you even flying a ship that is so one dimensional and so easily countered? When you look at it logically- there is no reason.

90K Pulse lasers is more than enough projection. There will never be in a situation (outside of a huge fleet fight) where you need more projection than that. Thus I rest my argument. Long range turrets are sub optimal 100% of the time, uness you are in a sniper rokh naga fleet, as i explained many pages ago.
Whitehound
#132 - 2013-07-06 21:10:15 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
And you know as well as anyone else (or should) that kind of engagement range is a running joke due to on grid probing.

Congratulations: you can shoot further than anyone else, for about 30-90 seconds, then they're all up on your face, giving you the good news.

So you move to a new spot.

Probing is then just a tactic to counter snipers and can itself be countered. You can park stealth bombers near your snipers and have them bomb the position shortly after your snipers warped out.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#133 - 2013-07-06 21:43:32 UTC
Chessur wrote:
... Where I stated that MED rails are a horrible weapon system, and that 'Long Range' turrets in general are sub par in almost all situations (Barring huge fleet fights) Than regular Short ranged weapon systems. ...

Do state your opinion, but it is just more BS what you post here. You still do not comprehend long range turrets. Your 76km Pulse Laser Orcle with lol-tank will be chased off by any new player who can fly a railgun- or beam-fitted BC with MWD.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-07-06 22:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
@chessur's last post - yup

@whitehound - he's posted the BR with the promise of a FRAPs to follow - the onus is kinda on you to prove he's talking rubbish. Note with the evidence currently on the table...I wish you good luck there. This might sound sarcastic, it's not. I'm interested to understand it better, however this far, only the prosecution have offered any evidence that isn't 'barstool hearsay'.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-07-06 22:23:18 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
@chessur's last post - yup

@whitehound - he's posted the BR with the promise of a FRAPs to follow - the onus is kinda on you to prove he's talking rubbish. Note with the evidence currently on the table...I wish you good luck there. This might sound sarcastic, it's not. I'm interested to understand it better, however this far, only the prosecution have offered any evidence that isn't 'barstool hearsay'.



He's talking about Eve Uni

You ever fight those guys? I watched four dudes with arty cynabals kill about 15 of a 25 man uni fleet before they got pushed off field.

A shield oracle isn't some dark magic, its a very frigging fast Abaddon with no tank, pretty much anything that can hit back will mangle them. An armor tanked pulse oracle, twice the tank...but still gets ruined by anything that can hit it back.
Whitehound
#136 - 2013-07-06 22:26:47 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
@whitehound - he's posted the BR with the promise of a FRAPs to follow - the onus is kinda on you to prove he's talking rubbish. Note with the evidence currently on the table...I wish you good luck there. This might sound sarcastic, it's not. I'm interested to understand it better, however this far, only the prosecution have offered any evidence that isn't 'barstool hearsay'.

His Pulse Lasers only go out to 76km and his MWD only flies so fast. Any new player with a railgun- or beam-fitted BC would have to sit 100km away from the Oracle and shoot it. If the Oracle moves closer does one move further away, if the Orcle moves away does one move closer. It is not difficult at all to understand, unless of course you are Chessur.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#137 - 2013-07-07 01:17:45 UTC
Ok, im back. I have to apologize As i can't seem to dig up that particular FRAPs of that BR I posted

However-

I do have another video that gets the point across just as well. Sit back and enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbeQudtkoCE

This next video only features 2 oracles as well, bit harder to discern our fleet, but we fight and kill and awful lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPmS2v9PUE8#at=172

Lastly, we headed out to VFK to kick ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuR1oJwlo5M
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#138 - 2013-07-07 01:23:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
@chessur's last post - yup

@whitehound - he's posted the BR with the promise of a FRAPs to follow - the onus is kinda on you to prove he's talking rubbish. Note with the evidence currently on the table...I wish you good luck there. This might sound sarcastic, it's not. I'm interested to understand it better, however this far, only the prosecution have offered any evidence that isn't 'barstool hearsay'.



He's talking about Eve Uni

You ever fight those guys? I watched four dudes with arty cynabals kill about 15 of a 25 man uni fleet before they got pushed off field.

A shield oracle isn't some dark magic, its a very frigging fast Abaddon with no tank, pretty much anything that can hit back will mangle them. An armor tanked pulse oracle, twice the tank...but still gets ruined by anything that can hit it back.


Except nothing that can hit us from this range, can hit back as hard as we can. The abaddon can kill an oracle, but in doing so would gimp its self for fleet work. On the other hand, I don't know a Tier 3 BC than can kill a BS that has the same projection... so no ****? They are not designed to do that. On the other hand, the baddon is slow as hell and is complete **** out side of big fleets / station games.


Whitehound wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
@whitehound - he's posted the BR with the promise of a FRAPs to follow - the onus is kinda on you to prove he's talking rubbish. Note with the evidence currently on the table...I wish you good luck there. This might sound sarcastic, it's not. I'm interested to understand it better, however this far, only the prosecution have offered any evidence that isn't 'barstool hearsay'.

His Pulse Lasers only go out to 76km and his MWD only flies so fast. Any new player with a railgun- or beam-fitted BC would have to sit 100km away from the Oracle and shoot it. If the Oracle moves closer does one move further away, if the Orcle moves away does one move closer. It is not difficult at all to understand, unless of course you are Chessur.


You know I would love to fight this. Me in my oracle, and you in your Beam / Rail BC. You give me the time and place, and I will be there.

its kind of funny, I have asked you multiple times for a duel, yet you either ignore or turn down the request. However since you are asking this time, and I will most graciously accept- what are you going to do?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-07-07 01:52:36 UTC
Chessur wrote:
[quote=Onictus]

Except nothing that can hit us from this range, can hit back as hard as we can. The abaddon can kill an oracle, but in doing so would gimp its self for fleet work. On the other hand, I don't know a Tier 3 BC than can kill a BS that has the same projection... so no ****? They are not designed to do that. On the other hand, the baddon is slow as hell and is complete **** out side of big fleets / station games.


Rail naga, twice the range....easily, more like 200km if you want to go full ******, Arty Tornadoes plain alpha shield oracles, and again they can do it at ranges around 150km.

You killed a Uni fleet that is a pile of nubs with short range BCs and a T1 guns (I killed one in wolves yesterday) its a **** poor validation of a ship type. So yeah, if you are kiting around in low sec against short range ships with medium guns, pulse oracles are fine.

They fall apart the second anything can hit back, and god help someone gets close to you, the apply damage like crap. This isn't a mystery, I've spent a LOT of time on oracals, out here we use them to kill structures because they have BIG DPS without the annoyance of ammo.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#140 - 2013-07-07 02:02:50 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Chessur wrote:
[quote=Onictus]

Except nothing that can hit us from this range, can hit back as hard as we can. The abaddon can kill an oracle, but in doing so would gimp its self for fleet work. On the other hand, I don't know a Tier 3 BC than can kill a BS that has the same projection... so no ****? They are not designed to do that. On the other hand, the baddon is slow as hell and is complete **** out side of big fleets / station games.


Rail naga, twice the range....easily, more like 200km if you want to go full ******, Arty Tornadoes plain alpha shield oracles, and again they can do it at ranges around 150km.

You killed a Uni fleet that is a pile of nubs with short range BCs and a T1 guns (I killed one in wolves yesterday) its a **** poor validation of a ship type. So yeah, if you are kiting around in low sec against short range ships with medium guns, pulse oracles are fine.

They fall apart the second anything can hit back, and god help someone gets close to you, the apply damage like crap. This isn't a mystery, I've spent a LOT of time on oracals, out here we use them to kill structures because they have BIG DPS without the annoyance of ammo.



See your in FA... and I am not sure if you know this, but Hatchery (and myself) **** on you and your alliance daily. Because of that, I am going to disregard every thing that comes out of your mouth.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13400832 Ouch.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13361007 Dunked.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13289906 I don't think I can find a BR where you guys win...

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13284176 I am still looking

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13280523 And I am only half way through the month. LOL nice fleet pests

You know, it seems that a ton of those BR's posted contained oracles raping your fleets. Yet it seems that you don't learn.

Between you and me, it seems that you're trying to give me advice. But when i look at the data, im just going to ignore it.