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Missles really gimped.

Author
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#21 - 2013-05-06 02:09:05 UTC
LOL HAILLol

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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-06 02:11:51 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
ehm I wasn't comparing missiles in that instance really, someone said they had a 600 DPS rupture failfit so I had to shoot it down :3

I don't shoot cruises in pvp, I got over self-harm about 10 years ago.


You do get close to 600 dps with Hail and drones. As paper-warrioring as Hail is, it's closer to reality than the 600 kinetic dps drake with Fury heavies, which everyone and their mother cites as the reason why missiles are OP.

Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.


you could run with rigors and flares and a painter...........nobody would know!
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#23 - 2013-05-06 02:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
And since when are missiles great on paper? They're **** on paper compared to blasters and lasers in general. Missiles always work. They're a very strong weapon platform and always will be. The only exception is mega fleets where targets instantly die, and even that saw the goon drakefleets for a long time. Now I don't live in null, but I believe these were shut down by some firewall doctrines that caught on relatively recently. They might still be used even after the nerfs if not for that.

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Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#24 - 2013-05-06 02:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Post deleted due to syndrome of a downs.

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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-05-06 10:38:13 UTC
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
A web and a scram should be all thats needed when using a close range wepaon, just like other weapon systems.

.


you forgot a few mods. like a TE or 2 usually, like the one in this thread uses 1. Or say TC's on the uber SR gank boat, gank vindi. Unless of course you like missing targets who don't fly into web range. Like when someone is smart enough to not get close and you have to whip out the barrage. You rarely see a drake without TP, you rarely see a gun boat (at least minmatar) without TE. Different paths same effect...hit crap better. And both damn eve law a need to fit them.


Now some will say that TE is a low slot mod. After june if that rupture wants the tracking, want some range, the answer is no longer TE. So after june fear not...this mythical 600dps rupture will be jsut like a web, paint and scram ham boat. It will be 1 web, 1 TC (with alternating scripts changes) and scram.

Or ofc pull a shield rig and run ambit and TE (that will now only enahce tracking). Not like its a much tastier pick all in all.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-05-06 11:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
And if I tell you the rupture fit I use that has 364 dps will beat that 600 dps one every time?

How much you can get your DPS number in EFT has 0 relation to the actual performance of a ship. This is one thing you need to understand before coming to make a whine thread.

Missiles are fine in pvp, they have their advantages and disadvantages just like any other weapon system.


You need to undock more. Missiles are precisely the weapon system that looks great on paper but useless in practice. Why don't you actually shoot cruises at anything that's moving and compare that to EFT?Roll

Rockets not included, btw, small blasters are fine in pvp too, frig fight is a different game.


And you need to fly the ship and not just undock! Roll

Except Cruise Missiles, which will be buffed anyting is fine! Solo I fly >90% missiles in my ships Rockets, HMs, HAMs mainly, but also torps) and I am really happy with them. Everything is OK and more or less balanced.

sabre906 wrote:
Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.


Depending on Target and Killmail I would say. And you miss proof of that as well. It's not my impression, that mainly Drones are on the Killmails, when Drakes are on them.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#27 - 2013-05-06 11:47:09 UTC
Get target painters and webs... problem solved.
Charlie Jacobson
#28 - 2013-05-06 12:59:43 UTC
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#29 - 2013-05-06 13:13:07 UTC
I want to draw a comparison of two frequently used ships in whs...

a) the 970dps blaster/valkyrie proteus
b) the 690dps hamlegion

We are normally fighting other tech-IIIs and their fleets, with all those cruisers (partially inside highclass wolf-rayets and such) strongly putting HAMs to a disadvantage, yet:

- Comparing the damage output of (we usually start fights at around spitting range) the proteus with around 35% higher base damage (on paper) against a hamlegion with terrible sig-issues against moving t3 cruisers... the hamlegion either performs equal to the prot, or -- which is way more oftenly the case -- outdps the proteus by a huge margin. Slaying capitals is mostly still proteus-speace, but in any decent fight having you need to switch from target to target, the legions just fare a lot better. Ofc a lot comes hand in hand with the selectable damagetype and slamming the ham-pilots heads' onto the table until they finally mount a TP each on their ships.

However, since you already got to the conclusion that missiles are terrible and not worthy, why use them?
Kessel Rock
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-05-06 13:15:59 UTC
I've tried playing this game a few times over the past 6 years. and i always felt missiles were awesome. I come back this time and im completely gimped. i used to be able to blow through anoms with 0 problems. i come back to the game try to do it and lose 3 ships.

I get in my ship that i just used to rat belts (dont have good skills with guns all my skills are in missiles) all gun weapons and rip through anoms.

my Raven kills soooo slow yet my POS little crap ship DPS is 2X higher with 50% less skills.
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#31 - 2013-05-06 13:22:17 UTC
I can´t say that t2 HAMs are broken. I use them regulary on my legion and cyclone.

I´d rather say: Hands of my HAMs!
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#32 - 2013-05-06 13:26:54 UTC
sabre906 wrote:

Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.


It's because drones have a higher activation rate compared to HMLs Roll
It's going by which module/thingy cycled the most times on that target, so in case of LR-fits, drones normally win.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-05-06 13:29:03 UTC
@Kessel Rock: In which way is your Raven fitted? With Light Missiles and Heat Sinks?

@Lloyd: Wouldn't a Tengu in general make more sense instead of Legion? Approximately same dps for non-scourge and much higher dps for scourge assault missiles? But using Wolf Rayet as an excuse to not fly shiled tanked Tengu, which performs in general better with missiles is a little bit "unfair". This is like I would argue that missile are in general better because they are not affected by NPCs Tracking disruptors, which are only used by Sansha. So if you rat in Gurista Space this is not ture anymore. There will be always situation where guns are better instead of missile and vice versa!

Missiles are fine and Cruise Missiles will get a nice buff with the summer expansion. I am looking forward to fly my CNR after the Patch. Lol
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-05-06 14:17:36 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Get target painters and webs... problem solved.
So, you're saying we have to armour tank our missile boats. You are aware that putting webs (not that there's much point putting webbers on a HML ship) and painters on shield tanked ships eats into the tank, I hope.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-05-06 14:34:34 UTC
Josilin, Tracking Enhancers for guns have to be changed for armor tank as well. You have too choose what's more important! So where is the difference to missiles and shield tank? Missile are even better in this field because their damage mods does not conflict with tank slots, like they do on armor ships with guns!

And again, depending on usage. For HAMs stasis webs can make sense and a difference. Of course webs on a kiting Fleet Ship with HMLs doesn't really make any sense.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#36 - 2013-05-06 15:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Get target painters and webs... problem solved.
So, you're saying we have to armour tank our missile boats. You are aware that putting webs (not that there's much point putting webbers on a HML ship) and painters on shield tanked ships eats into the tank, I hope.


You always have to make trade offs in this game. The whole game is about betting what will be most useful in the situation you will get into.

Faction Heavy Missiles work very nicely against Cruisers and especially BC. If you have troubles hitting smaller stuff then get Precisions. Fury are only intened to be used against BC or BS. If you want to have full DPS of Furies onto a cruiser then ... I am sorry you need TP. BTW: This is all the same with arties. If you use long range stuff then you get high dps but very bad tracking. So everything which is moving in 90 degrees to you will not get hit if it is small or fast enough.

And by the way... there are indeed ships in this game which are made for Missiles and Armor tanking... e.g. the Scrilege.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#37 - 2013-05-06 15:25:42 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:

And again, depending on usage. For HAMs stasis webs can make sense and a difference. Of course webs on a kiting Fleet Ship with HMLs doesn't really make any sense.


I would not fully agree to this. If you are in a kiting cruiser then you have to expect that frigates will catch you. So it is useful to have a web to kill them as fast as possible because otherwise they will just scram you and their friends will take care of you very fast.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-05-07 09:47:15 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:

And again, depending on usage. For HAMs stasis webs can make sense and a difference. Of course webs on a kiting Fleet Ship with HMLs doesn't really make any sense.


I would not fully agree to this. If you are in a kiting cruiser then you have to expect that frigates will catch you. So it is useful to have a web to kill them as fast as possible because otherwise they will just scram you and their friends will take care of you very fast.


Exceptions can always be an argument and there is always an anti-fit for the ship you fly. But you seldomly see webs on a HML ship. My counterattack to your reply would be: picking the right target is the way to go in this case and you can not win all the time :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-05-07 10:28:06 UTC
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
In terms of missles cruiser sized and up, (heavy, heavy assault, torpedos, cruise) missles are really terrible in pvp. It is the only weapon system that actually has to tech down to faction ammo to hit EQUAL sized vessels with any moderate applied dps. For example:

In order to effectivly hit another cruiser in a caldari vessel such as my cara, I have to go from 450 dps with rages, to 380 dps with faction navys, and still hit for crap unless the target is double webbed. Meanwhile, you have ruptures pushing near 600 dps no prob. There is just no contest. Missles are damn near obsolete in pvp. The problem? Explosion radius and explosion velocity. Even with max skills and implants, rage heavy assults have an exp radious around 160 and exp velocity around 150. With those numbers you can kiss almost half of your applied damage goodbye against anything other than a double webbed battlecruiser. It is obsurd.

Please fix this terrible weapon system


Medium missiles are fine now. BS missiles are very poor, but they're getting looked at. The Cruise missiles are getting a 30% DPS buff, for a start.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-05-07 10:28:49 UTC
Meditril wrote:


And by the way... there are indeed ships in this game which are made for Missiles and Armor tanking... e.g. the Scrilege.


Also the Legion, the Prophecy and soon the Armageddon.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

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