These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

miners out in null
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-05-17 10:50:02 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

You think that intel channels are the answer, well of course it eludes you...


How unhelpful.

Go on, tell me about how Null mining is so dangerous?


First of all the attackers will find from sov information which systems will be mined, they will also know of course which systems will have ice. From that information they can get covert ops/covert cyno fitted T3's in those systems or log them off next door, especially looking for systems that are not occupied, which negates intel, and I have seen that done by FA in Cobalt Edge, smart cookies that they are. Which is why I pointed out that local based intel is not the full answer, people seem to think roams, biggest threat, not really, the biggest threat is long term professional campers, and some such as FA are good at it.

The first defence is always to warp out as soon as danger appears, and not to mine if something in system, but resource denial will now become more key as ice bottlenecks appear and people switch their industry toons to 0.0, so the miners are likely to have a cloaky camper in system continiously. Some entities have multiple systems to mine in, however not all, but even then they may all get covered, at that point it becomes a risk based endevour, where escalation is key, in terms of ice the option is not to go back to 0.0 and if they want to make stuff in 0.0 theyu have to tough it out.

This is what I get to as an end point:

Defending a mining fleet
Bubble the gate(s)
Bubble the entry point from the gates to the grav site with cans to uncloak and a fast locker to get point.
Have scouts out at least three systems away on gates, have scouts on possible jump in points
Cyno jam the mining system and have someone on who can cycle the jammer, better stil cyno jam the systems next door as well.
Use Skiffs, have multiple orca’s to grab cans and drop off the ore/ice to the station/POS
Have multiple Triage ready carriers that have locked up the skiffs and can rep each other
Have a support fleet ready to be formed at need to come in ASAP

Attack a Mining fleet:
A t3 Strategic Cruiser with a covert ops cyno, jumps in and warps to grav site, points something and lights covert cyno for BLOPS to come in to point as many as possible.
Have a BC fleet ready on a Titan to be bridged in as close as possible to support the BLOPS fleet.
Have Capital support in case it escalates, negated by cyno's and of course entities that have bigger cap fleets

Does that help?


Stop mining AFK.

Stop mining in skiffs.

You don't need a damned capital fleet to defend your stupid mining ops. No wonder everyone drops on you.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#42 - 2013-05-17 10:59:19 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Quinzel said it better than I can, but I'll try~
Dracvlad wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:


Bubble the gate(s), watch local, do I have to play the game for you?

Seriously, by your logic nobody can rat right now.


Do you think that an Exhumer can align just like a ratting carrier can, nope, because it is mining a static rock and has 15 km range, bubble the gate, yeah works against nullified T3's. You tried to make a smart comment, but made yourself look a complete fool.

As others have quite rightly pointed out removing the need to use probes to find the grav site is a massive nerf to 0.0 mining, the reasoning behind it is of course that CCP wants to create a conflict driver around defending mining fleets, this may happen, but I rather doubt it for the majority of alliances, the only group that could defend their mining fleets is the CFC.


Most people don't rat in carriers. And I don't think you can align out with sentries anyways.
~FLEETS OF NULLIFIED T3s GUYS~

It's a massive nerf to AFK 0.0 mining. Cry some more for me about how you can't just click that arknor and go AFK for 12min at a time. Also, the CFC isn't dumb enough to have ~mining ops~ with standby ~miner protection fleets~.


Dracvlad wrote:
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:


Christ.

I'm on-again off-again involved in recruitment on my combat pilots.

I would reject you out-of-hand if I dug you up on the forums and found this post.

Hint: It's not because of some asinine 'minimum SP requirement'.

I'm kind of convinced that this is a troll alt, but if you're a legitimate player, I sincerely suggest you reconsider your attitude.

E: The complainants in this thread elude me. Don't you guys have Intel channels? You shouldn't at any point be aware of a fleet only once they've entered Local. I used to have friends pop up all the time telling me I was 'intel channel famous' for bumming around in crap Nullsec in a lone Frigate.


You think that intel channels are the answer, well of course it eludes you...


Seriously, does whatever ****** organization you fly with not use their intel channels? Are you in a renter alliance corp filled with bots, or do you just live in Dodixie?
God forbid you go "Oh, there's alot of activity around here, maybe I should watch intel and local so that I'll be prepared to dock when the time comes!"


e: Oh god he's an Executive Outcomes alt. I don't think he's trolling :cripes:


I was in EXE for a brief period but left due to an internal corp issue. In terms of your carrier ratting with sentries, yes its more efficient, but its a lot more dangerous which is why I used fighters and was aligned, while I was in EXE I had a Nulli Rapier come in system (that was when the PL BLOPS group was active ) and I was in flight to the POS seconds after he arrived in local.

You know that intel channels are weaker during certain TZ's and there are ways to reduce their efficiency, which I detail above.

It is not fleets of nullified T3's, its using them to negate the bubbles and pop the covert cyno.

And you think people go AFK in 0.0 when mining, if so they deserve to lose their ships!!!

I wonder just how the CFC will develop in this industrial area, my brief time in the CFC was very educational in terms of seeing just how bright you guys are, and one of the leading lights in Miniluv missing the obvious was interesting, though maybe you can be forgiven for that not being your area of specialisation.

If you read my post above then you can see a possible end game, who knows, but a High Sec carebear miner is not the same as a 0.0 pilots indy toon...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#43 - 2013-05-17 11:09:03 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:

Stop mining AFK.

Stop mining in skiffs.

You don't need a damned capital fleet to defend your stupid mining ops. No wonder everyone drops on you.


AFK Mining in 0.0 is suicidal, simple as...

Please read the above again, you will find that is an area denial end game scenario, which really depends on the size of the balls of the defending alliance, most would not dare do that. As for being dropped on, only once, and I was in a guard ship and took out the Arazu and was chewing through a Redemmer when I popped, as a result most of the mining ships got out, was fun!!!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#44 - 2013-05-17 11:31:15 UTC
Actually, I was being sincere and trying to get a picture of what you deal with. So yeah, cheers.

Doesn't seem to be magnitudes worse than what anybody else has to deal with, though. If a group are that dedicated in shutting you down, you're pretty much ****** regardless of your region if you can't formulate a response.

Most Null miners I've spoken to haven't had such issues, so I don't think your anecdote is representative.

That said, I get what you're saying about how the upcoming change will promote a resource war and cause those dedicated resource denial activities will increase.

See though, that's the great thing about capitalism.

It will push people out of Null who can't handle the heat for sure, but as the demand increases and such ventures become more lucrative entrepreneurial individuals will move to fill that demand.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
Mylin Liu
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#45 - 2013-05-17 11:45:56 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

You think that intel channels are the answer, well of course it eludes you...


How unhelpful.

Go on, tell me about how Null mining is so dangerous?


First of all the attackers will find from sov information which systems will be mined, they will also know of course which systems will have ice. From that information they can get covert ops/covert cyno fitted T3's in those systems or log them off next door, especially looking for systems that are not occupied, which negates intel, and I have seen that done by FA in Cobalt Edge, smart cookies that they are. Which is why I pointed out that local based intel is not the full answer, people seem to think roams, biggest threat, not really, the biggest threat is long term professional campers, and some such as FA are good at it.

The first defence is always to warp out as soon as danger appears, and not to mine if something in system, but resource denial will now become more key as ice bottlenecks appear and people switch their industry toons to 0.0, so the miners are likely to have a cloaky camper in system continiously. Some entities have multiple systems to mine in, however not all, but even then they may all get covered, at that point it becomes a risk based endevour, where escalation is key, in terms of ice the option is not to go back to 0.0 and if they want to make stuff in 0.0 theyu have to tough it out.

This is what I get to as an end point:

Defending a mining fleet
Bubble the gate(s)
Bubble the entry point from the gates to the grav site with cans to uncloak and a fast locker to get point.
Have scouts out at least three systems away on gates, have scouts on possible jump in points
Cyno jam the mining system and have someone on who can cycle the jammer, better stil cyno jam the systems next door as well.
Use Skiffs, have multiple orca’s to grab cans and drop off the ore/ice to the station/POS
Have multiple Triage ready carriers that have locked up the skiffs and can rep each other
Have a support fleet ready to be formed at need to come in ASAP

Attack a Mining fleet:
A t3 Strategic Cruiser with a covert ops cyno, jumps in and warps to grav site, points something and lights covert cyno for BLOPS to come in to point as many as possible.
Have a BC fleet ready on a Titan to be bridged in as close as possible to support the BLOPS fleet.
Have Capital support in case it escalates, negated by cyno's and of course entities that have bigger cap fleets

Does that help?


As far as I know, using cans and debris to de-cloak a ship has been deemed as an Exploit by CCP.
That shows you CCPs direction on this.

Bubbling gates etc.. only works if you part of a large corp/alliance small corps and groups neither have the players or the resources for such tactics, and yet these groups are generally the targets for people looking for easy kills.

Podding a miner is not PvP, its griefing, but hey lots of your survive on nothing but carebear tears anyway.
Cloaky campers get a free pass in this game, with extremely low risk of detection, and a high survivability rate.
It would be nice if other players were empowered against such tactics, but instead CCP has consistently bolstered the griefing plays style.

We had the increase in Covert Ops ability, and now players wont even be able mine in the slightly less risky grav sites.
The knock on effect of this is that ships will become more expensive, as industry becomes harder to run.

So go ahead, kill the miners, make life in nulsec unbearable for them, forcing them back to highsec. That way nulsec minerals such as Megacyte values will go up to such a degree that unless your a member of Test, Goon, or another massive alliance, you wont be able to afford your Pew Pew anymore.

So whatever, only CCP wins ;-)
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-05-17 11:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Dracvlad wrote:


I was in EXE for a brief period but left due to an internal corp issue. In terms of your carrier ratting with sentries, yes its more efficient, but its a lot more dangerous which is why I used fighters and was aligned, while I was in EXE I had a Nulli Rapier come in system (that was when the PL BLOPS group was active ) and I was in flight to the POS seconds after he arrived in local.

You know that intel channels are weaker during certain TZ's and there are ways to reduce their efficiency, which I detail above.

It is not fleets of nullified T3's, its using them to negate the bubbles and pop the covert cyno.

And you think people go AFK in 0.0 when mining, if so they deserve to lose their ships!!!

I wonder just how the CFC will develop in this industrial area, my brief time in the CFC was very educational in terms of seeing just how bright you guys are, and one of the leading lights in Miniluv missing the obvious was interesting, though maybe you can be forgiven for that not being your area of specialisation.

If you read my post above then you can see a possible end game, who knows, but a High Sec carebear miner is not the same as a 0.0 pilots indy toon...


I can't speak for everyone else's space in the CFC, but blops gangs are sort of rare around here. They have to travel through alot of hostile space to get where they want, they expensive to lose, and everyone wants to bait them out for a widow killmail.

I'm pretty sure that this update puts miners on the same level of security of ratters though. Someone, somewhere is going to slip up and get dumped on by a clever group of players, but the -vast- majority of people won't have any issues. Bubbles will stall the regular crew of bombers and cynabals, and exhumers are speedy enough to have a decent chance against rare cloaky T3 hotdroppers.

Hulks have a stock align of 16.7s, and can be brought down to 12.6s with 20m worth of rigs. (may compromise tank, depending on your setup)
Mackinaws align at 12.3 and go down to 9.3 if you feel like rigging them.
Even the noble ~Hauing Rorqual~ isn't in much danger if you know what you're doing. 31.1s stock align time, but if you throw on an istab and just one align rig and you're down to 21.8s. But they can still be saved by trying to warp then hitting jump at some emergency beacon the instant you see a hostile on grid.


I'm sure ganking dumb people who afk fleets of mackinaws in ice anoms is going to be a new sport. There's just no real reason for it to happen to you. People camping your system? Move.

e: Alot of people probably don't have other space to move to. Really, the only thing you can do is Not Mine in that situation. Keep an emergency stash of isk on hand or something if that's going to become an issue.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-05-17 11:55:59 UTC
Mylin Liu wrote:

As far as I know, using cans and debris to de-cloak a ship has been deemed as an Exploit by CCP.
That shows you CCPs direction on this.

Bubbling gates etc.. only works if you part of a large corp/alliance small corps and groups neither have the players or the resources for such tactics, and yet these groups are generally the targets for people looking for easy kills.

Podding a miner is not PvP, its griefing, but hey lots of your survive on nothing but carebear tears anyway.
Cloaky campers get a free pass in this game, with extremely low risk of detection, and a high survivability rate.
It would be nice if other players were empowered against such tactics, but instead CCP has consistently bolstered the griefing plays style.

We had the increase in Covert Ops ability, and now players wont even be able mine in the slightly less risky grav sites.
The knock on effect of this is that ships will become more expensive, as industry becomes harder to run.

So go ahead, kill the miners, make life in nulsec unbearable for them, forcing them back to highsec. That way nulsec minerals such as Megacyte values will go up to such a degree that unless your a member of Test, Goon, or another massive alliance, you wont be able to afford your Pew Pew anymore.

So whatever, only CCP wins ;-)





First off, let me blow your mind.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=12199

Those own.


Second, stop being terrible and just Get Out.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#48 - 2013-05-17 11:57:15 UTC
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
Actually, I was being sincere and trying to get a picture of what you deal with. So yeah, cheers.

Doesn't seem to be magnitudes worse than what anybody else has to deal with, though. If a group are that dedicated in shutting you down, you're pretty much ****** regardless of your region if you can't formulate a response.

Most Null miners I've spoken to haven't had such issues, so I don't think your anecdote is representative.

That said, I get what you're saying about how the upcoming change will promote a resource war and cause those dedicated resource denial activities will increase.

See though, that's the great thing about capitalism.

It will push people out of Null who can't handle the heat for sure, but as the demand increases and such ventures become more lucrative entrepreneurial individuals will move to fill that demand.



No problem, sorry for being a bit direct.

The issue is that the mining ship cannot pre-align easily, its possible to do so as long as you switch your targets as you align through the belt, pain in the butt to do however, I have done it. This means that the majority of them will not be aligned, this is where the grav site not requiring probes is the killer, they will not be able to get out in time as they are not pre-aligned. of course it then becomes a game to push the odds in your favour, hence bubbles, but that is negated by a nullified T3 cruiser. Currently some smart people come in probe out the grav site, set up corp BM's and have the same thing, but that takes planning and most people don't go that far, soon it will be handed to them on a plate, with side salad and garish LolEvil

The player you reacted to, I see his point and I see yours, I would have in the past had great fun in developing a player like that, because he is a thinker and is missing some understanding, but I am chilling at the moment and cannot be bothered with that, tempting though...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#49 - 2013-05-17 12:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


I was in EXE for a brief period but left due to an internal corp issue. In terms of your carrier ratting with sentries, yes its more efficient, but its a lot more dangerous which is why I used fighters and was aligned, while I was in EXE I had a Nulli Rapier come in system (that was when the PL BLOPS group was active ) and I was in flight to the POS seconds after he arrived in local.

You know that intel channels are weaker during certain TZ's and there are ways to reduce their efficiency, which I detail above.

It is not fleets of nullified T3's, its using them to negate the bubbles and pop the covert cyno.

And you think people go AFK in 0.0 when mining, if so they deserve to lose their ships!!!

I wonder just how the CFC will develop in this industrial area, my brief time in the CFC was very educational in terms of seeing just how bright you guys are, and one of the leading lights in Miniluv missing the obvious was interesting, though maybe you can be forgiven for that not being your area of specialisation.

If you read my post above then you can see a possible end game, who knows, but a High Sec carebear miner is not the same as a 0.0 pilots indy toon...


I can't speak for everyone else's space in the CFC, but blops gangs are sort of rare around here. They have to travel through alot of hostile space to get where they want, they expensive to lose, and everyone wants to bait them out for a widow killmail.

I'm pretty sure that this update puts miners on the same level of security of ratters though. Someone, somewhere is going to slip up and get dumped on by a clever group of players, but the -vast- majority of people won't have any issues. Bubbles will stall the regular crew of bombers and cynabals, and exhumers are speedy enough to have a decent chance against rare cloaky T3 hotdroppers.

Hulks have a stock align of 16.7s, and can be brought down to 12.6s with 20m worth of rigs. (may compromise tank, depending on your setup)
Mackinaws align at 12.3 and go down to 9.3 if you feel like rigging them.
Even the noble ~Hauing Rorqual~ isn't in much danger if you know what you're doing. 31.1s stock align time, but if you throw on an istab and just one align rig and you're down to 21.8s. But they can still be saved by trying to warp then hitting jump at some emergency beacon the instant you see a hostile on grid.


I'm sure ganking dumb people who afk fleets of mackinaws in ice anoms is going to be a new sport. There's just no real reason for it to happen to you. People camping your system? Move.

e: Alot of people probably don't have other space to move to. Really, the only thing you can do is Not Mine in that situation. Keep an emergency stash of isk on hand or something if that's going to become an issue.


You do have them, you used them in Delve quite a bit, and PL was running around CFC space not long ago with a 50 man Black Ops BS gang Shocked, was nasty, though I understood that you did manage to catch them once and give them a good spanking...

The bubbles will block the casual roamers and the like, in terms of your align numbers that is why I suggested the skiff, it aligns damn fast and is quick. Good points and something that miners would be wise to take note of, positioning in teh belt will also be key.

I think those people who do not have space to move will have to decide whether to mine in HS or go for it and the end game is what I pointed out, I would expect the CFC to do something like I suggested, because you are very very able to do that.

Hopefully lots of good fights!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#50 - 2013-05-17 12:20:06 UTC
Mylin Liu wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

You think that intel channels are the answer, well of course it eludes you...


How unhelpful.

Go on, tell me about how Null mining is so dangerous?


First of all the attackers will find from sov information which systems will be mined, they will also know of course which systems will have ice. From that information they can get covert ops/covert cyno fitted T3's in those systems or log them off next door, especially looking for systems that are not occupied, which negates intel, and I have seen that done by FA in Cobalt Edge, smart cookies that they are. Which is why I pointed out that local based intel is not the full answer, people seem to think roams, biggest threat, not really, the biggest threat is long term professional campers, and some such as FA are good at it.

The first defence is always to warp out as soon as danger appears, and not to mine if something in system, but resource denial will now become more key as ice bottlenecks appear and people switch their industry toons to 0.0, so the miners are likely to have a cloaky camper in system continiously. Some entities have multiple systems to mine in, however not all, but even then they may all get covered, at that point it becomes a risk based endevour, where escalation is key, in terms of ice the option is not to go back to 0.0 and if they want to make stuff in 0.0 theyu have to tough it out.

This is what I get to as an end point:

Defending a mining fleet
Bubble the gate(s)
Bubble the entry point from the gates to the grav site with cans to uncloak and a fast locker to get point.
Have scouts out at least three systems away on gates, have scouts on possible jump in points
Cyno jam the mining system and have someone on who can cycle the jammer, better stil cyno jam the systems next door as well.
Use Skiffs, have multiple orca’s to grab cans and drop off the ore/ice to the station/POS
Have multiple Triage ready carriers that have locked up the skiffs and can rep each other
Have a support fleet ready to be formed at need to come in ASAP

Attack a Mining fleet:
A t3 Strategic Cruiser with a covert ops cyno, jumps in and warps to grav site, points something and lights covert cyno for BLOPS to come in to point as many as possible.
Have a BC fleet ready on a Titan to be bridged in as close as possible to support the BLOPS fleet.
Have Capital support in case it escalates, negated by cyno's and of course entities that have bigger cap fleets

Does that help?


As far as I know, using cans and debris to de-cloak a ship has been deemed as an Exploit by CCP.
That shows you CCPs direction on this.

Bubbling gates etc.. only works if you part of a large corp/alliance small corps and groups neither have the players or the resources for such tactics, and yet these groups are generally the targets for people looking for easy kills.

Podding a miner is not PvP, its griefing, but hey lots of your survive on nothing but carebear tears anyway.
Cloaky campers get a free pass in this game, with extremely low risk of detection, and a high survivability rate.
It would be nice if other players were empowered against such tactics, but instead CCP has consistently bolstered the griefing plays style.

We had the increase in Covert Ops ability, and now players wont even be able mine in the slightly less risky grav sites.
The knock on effect of this is that ships will become more expensive, as industry becomes harder to run.

So go ahead, kill the miners, make life in nulsec unbearable for them, forcing them back to highsec. That way nulsec minerals such as Megacyte values will go up to such a degree that unless your a member of Test, Goon, or another massive alliance, you wont be able to afford your Pew Pew anymore.

So whatever, only CCP wins ;-)


The key driver on using cans to de-cloak is whether it will cause lag or not.

As Pirate Nation we had 96 toons and could get 30 in a fleet when in Querious, the thing is that we did just that in one of our systems, its possible.

I have only once ganked a miner and that was because it was a bot targetting the same roids as me, I failed too, lol, actually I understand the rush, in HS its to see if you can kill it before Concord kills you... In 0.0 its just a kill.

Cloaky camping is something that you just have to deal with, I have had great fun and a fair number of kills going after them, also you have to work out just who it is and what they can bring to the fight and act accordingly, but the risk is always there.

Get that Venture out and go for it, just think ninja mining, all you need is to get a Venture in location and BLOPS a Transport ship in and your laughing, think it through and act on it!!!

The win is for you doing.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-05-17 12:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Dracvlad wrote:

You do have them, you used them in Delve quite a bit, and PL was running around CFC space not long ago with a 50 man Black Ops BS gang Shocked, was nasty, though I understood that you did manage to catch them once and give them a good spanking...

The bubbles will block the casual roamers and the like, in terms of your align numbers that is why I suggested the skiff, it aligns damn fast and is quick. Good points and something that miners would be wise to take note of, positioning in teh belt will also be key.

I think those people who do not have space to move will have to decide whether to mine in HS or go for it and the end game is what I pointed out, I would expect the CFC to do something like I suggested, because you are very very able to do that.

Hopefully lots of good fights!


I meant that blops gangs were somewhat rare in deklein. Last one I noticed was around because they had a bunch of dudes awoxing. It's kind of funny how dudes in carriers will sit there ratting with a 20+ man gang next door that's being constantly reported in intel.

e: The carrier died horribly, if anyone was wondering
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#52 - 2013-05-17 13:08:41 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

You do have them, you used them in Delve quite a bit, and PL was running around CFC space not long ago with a 50 man Black Ops BS gang Shocked, was nasty, though I understood that you did manage to catch them once and give them a good spanking...

The bubbles will block the casual roamers and the like, in terms of your align numbers that is why I suggested the skiff, it aligns damn fast and is quick. Good points and something that miners would be wise to take note of, positioning in teh belt will also be key.

I think those people who do not have space to move will have to decide whether to mine in HS or go for it and the end game is what I pointed out, I would expect the CFC to do something like I suggested, because you are very very able to do that.

Hopefully lots of good fights!


I meant that blops gangs were somewhat rare in deklein. Last one I noticed was around because they had a bunch of dudes awoxing. It's kind of funny how dudes in carriers will sit there ratting with a 20+ man gang next door that's being constantly reported in intel.

e: The carrier died horribly, if anyone was wondering


Yeah, I understood what you meant in terms of Deklin, but as I had started typing that about the Delve BLOPS I thought I would at least mention it. It is amazing just how many people ignore intel channels, I would think that carrier pilot was doing that, I was going to say that I bet he died but you got there before me. Big smile, cheers!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#53 - 2013-05-17 13:36:02 UTC
Damn-it S&I is slow today.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
James Gunnar
Minmatar Academy
#54 - 2013-05-18 08:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: James Gunnar
Jin Ro Chung wrote:
Well I've only gotten into EVE this month, but it strikes me that people and corps tend to give miners a wide berth because they're noobs. Mining is a great starting profession so that not only means gankers and griefers will always attack miners (free kill, no skill required whatsoever, don't even need a good ship, and often new miners think they can be AFK, obviously, because it's so mind-numbingly dull, something which griefers are only too happy to rub in) but also everyone involved in mining is carrying a big "NEWB" sign on their ships.

Considering corps tend to want to make money they're only interested in PvP and combat pilots who can protect their assets and ops. Of course the serious miners in low and nullsec who don't use barges or exhumers are making ISK billions so there's no incentive for them to invite newbs into that world, and every incentive to keep them out.

It's a real shame, lowsec or nullsec mining can be really tempting for new players, but in reality it takes years of skill training and hundreds of euros before you'll be ready for that. People who reside in lowsec and nullsec think they're teaching their prey some valuable lessons about PvP-readiness but in reality they're just territorial and taking the path of least resistance, having forgotten that even just training basic survival skills takes months/years for new players. EVE players often say "No really the smallest newb frigate can turn an entire fleet battle upside down!" but that's just cognitive dissonance: we like the EVE universe so we blindly accept that it comes with truly absurd game mechanics (ie waiting for skills). I don't see myself joining a corp or fleet warfare for years to come (I don't know how long the minimum requirement of 15M SP will take but I'm guessing years).

What I really don't get about EVE is how it's made so that you're better off NOT playing the game (only keeping your skill training queue filled) for the first months while you train up essential skills, but since I don't have the money to support such a bizarre hobby I'll actually make use of my playtime anyway and take the inevitable "educational" grieving as it comes. I also completely recognize that griefing and ganking is a valid playstyle (makes every game from Minecraft to DayZ more interesting) it's just a shame many try to actively be as douchy as they can be to new players.

It's my own fault really, I should've picked up EVE years ago, but I've always instinctively hated MMOs (and have always been proven right in that MMOs always suck and are always compulsion-based themeparks) because of their economical-compulsive properties and EVE only differs so much. Instead of active grinding you're just grinding passively (using your time) so it's at least a slight improvement over regular themepark MMOs.

Oh well, I've resigned myself to trying to have fun irrespective of the fact that I came to this game 10 years too late.



Hahahahahahahahahahahahah!

Oh man.

*wipes tears away* uhuh

God, I love new players. Lolyears

E: man I hope I just fell for a 10/10

E2: Guess no one here likes working as a team. Shame.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-05-20 21:37:19 UTC
Unfortunately, I think both scenarios are right. Yes, it will be more profitable to mine in null. Yes, it will be harder to safely mine in null. The thing is, though, is the increase in mining profits in null going to offset the added risk? Is it still going to just be easier/safer to escort a few JF's from empire instead of trying to protect a mining op? Which one will win out, and will CCP make adjustments as necessary to keep it where they intend it to go?
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-05-20 22:50:03 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Stop mining AFK.

Stop mining in skiffs.

You don't need a damned capital fleet to defend your stupid mining ops. No wonder everyone drops on you.


I agree with everything he said except not using skiffs. Skiffs have are easy to fit, have a good tank, align quickly, and have spinners which make the space panties drop.
Amarrnation
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-05-21 16:29:44 UTC
I don't think null-sec alliances/corps (except for renting ones) care to recruit miners any more than they want station traders or ratters.

Why would you recruit someone on the criteria of how they make money? Even after the industrial re-balance, good null-sec corps/alliances would be stupid to recruit on that basis.

The primary need is members who can get into a ship to fight. Anything else is secondary. Once that initial need is fulfilled, then if people want to mine or rat, the alliances typically don't care.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#58 - 2013-05-21 18:53:47 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
Unfortunately, I think both scenarios are right. Yes, it will be more profitable to mine in null. Yes, it will be harder to safely mine in null. The thing is, though, is the increase in mining profits in null going to offset the added risk? Is it still going to just be easier/safer to escort a few JF's from empire instead of trying to protect a mining op? Which one will win out, and will CCP make adjustments as necessary to keep it where they intend it to go?

Nice simple and to the point. Unlike my posts, lol.

Profits offsetting risk...

Well considering the profits only went up a small amount, while the risk went up much further we start to see a clearer picture.

Add in the fact that the current risk vs reward for null sec miners is in a place where null sec mining is rare compared to any other null sec activity. This alone would indicate that the risk vs reward is already leaning more toward to risk side of the scale. I am not saying null sec mining does not happen, there are lots of null sec miners. but they are a rare breed compared to every other profession in EVE.

So if the risk has been increased much more than the reward, and the balance was already leaning toward the risk side, what is the logical outcome?

Well, the logical outcome would be the scale tips even further to the risk side, resulting in the profession becoming less popular.

We see null sec mining currently as one of the least popular activities in EVE. If the rewards for this activity did offset the risks we would see it get much more popular, but when that balance is shifted even further the other way the only logical conclusion is that it will become less popular.

As a result of this the minerals produced by those null sec miners will drop in supply. that drop in supply will result in an increase in value making making null sec mining more profitable and attractive. Eventually an equilibrium will be reached where the higher rewards balance the increased risk, but that equilibrium will likely be with a much lower number of miners than we have now. These higher rewards will be based on higher mineral prices, which in turn will mean higher cost for building anything from those minerals. The value of high sec minerals will go down with the ore composition changes. High end minerals will again be the resource bottleneck, the value of these null sec minerals will go way up.Overall build costs will likely be higher.

So now we have null sec miners making much more isk, but at the same time every thing in the game will again cost much more. This will result in very little net gain for the miners as their high isk income will be offset by a higher cost of what they buy. Their isk will be worth less, yet the impact will not stop here. The PVPers and Ratters will be affected too. Ratting is the most popular activity for PVPers to generate income. Ratting is based on bounties payed out fro killing those rats. Those bounties will not go up, they are in no way tied to mineral prices. But the ratters will be affected by the prices of what they buy going up. This will effectively nerf the income of ratters in the same manner as the null sec miners increased income is nullified. They will make the same isk/hr they did before, but their isk will not be worth as much, basically nerfing their income.

In effect this will, once an equilibrium is reached, result in an increase in the income of null sec miners, and a nerf to the income of ratters. This will narrow that gap in income between the two, which can be considered a good thing, but how long will that new equilibrium take? How many players will rage quit, if any, before itt is reached? What effect will this inflation have on the accessibility of the game for new players? What effect will if have on the isk sink/faucet balance?

It is impossible to know not only how these many aspects will affect each other, but how will the player base respond. I see this as a step in the wrong direction, as do many others, I really hope we are wrong.
Aurora Silvare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-05-29 03:03:19 UTC
I wouldn't say there are no miners in null, but I would say there are very few "straight" miners.

What i mean by that is I see very few people in my alliance that do nothing but mine. All 4 of my accounts I have living in 0.0 can mine but they all have other roles that are useful to the alliance be it PvP, capital construction, covert cyno/recon or providing bonuses other than the mining type I can cover most bases. Most of the people I see mining are the same way.
Vince Snetterton
#60 - 2013-05-29 04:00:18 UTC
Mining is going to take off in null.

Sure, it is insane to mine in contested areas. But even with the current hostilities, there are huge swaths of territory that are so deep inside blue space that the mining bots can run with virtual impunity. And in 6 days the ISK/ hour for mining in null sec is going up by an huge percent, making afk null sec mining even more lucrative.

As for any neutral interlopers, the null sec bot programs already deal with them, and are programmed to dock up the exhumers and mining barges as soon as a neutral is seen anywhere even close to the system that the mining fleets are operating in.

And please don't tell me CCP is actively looking for these mining bot fleets.
Just like a tree falling in the forest, if a bot mining fleet is operating far, far away from the prying eyes of anyone who would report them, how does CCP know about it, or even care?