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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Build Costs

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Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#41 - 2013-05-03 17:25:22 UTC
Seems fine, increase in price is offset by increases in low ends from asteroid mining.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#42 - 2013-05-03 17:27:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
How balanced is the cost and effectiveness of a BS compared to a BC? Is a BS really worth 4 BCs?


Its very consistent across EVE to get linear power increase for exponential cost increase. Is a Cruiser worth 10 frigates? Is a Machariel better than 5 battleships? I think BS happened to be at a point in the curve which is extremely important because the price point is right where it starts to hurt people, but BC are right there reminding you of how small your performance increase is.

We think it fits though. PVEers are making their first long-term investment on a BS usually and we don't want that to be available too quickly, and for large scale PVP BS are the last step before moving to extremely end-game ships and so it needs to feel significant.



A Battleship is not worth more than 2 Tier 3 battlecruisers and not really worth more than 3 tier 2 or tier 1 battlecruisers.

End game and large scale pvp find BC's more often used unless cap ships are involved or its a pos bash. Well aside from the occasion arty fleet because they are the unstoppable juggernaut that the devs seem to catering and pushing towards even more.

If anything Arties need a solid alpha reduction with an increase in rate of fire so other race's and weapon types can also be useful in large scale fleets.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#43 - 2013-05-03 17:31:46 UTC
Was hoping to see some standardised prices accross the board :/

Happy with the Tier 1 price increases but upping the Tier 2 and not changing the Tier 3 is goanna have more excuses why not to fly a battleship :/

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#44 - 2013-05-03 17:32:17 UTC
Will insurance values be looked at? If not the current tier 1/2 will be a lot less viable for many pilots than the current tier 3 which seems a shame considering the effort being put into balancing them.

Fear God and Thread Nought
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-05-03 17:32:50 UTC
Give me the money!

Big smile

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
AyayaPanda
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-05-03 17:33:34 UTC
How many isk/hr can a new player achieve by run lv3 missions?

Back in 2011 I spent 3 months running missions to buy myself an apoca. 3 months sp is just good enough for lv4 missions.

That, IMO, was a Good design.


New toons can make far more isk by doing FW. But, they don't uaually fly bs in FW, they don't need to train for a bs in 3 month.
Well new player can try mining in hs, 5m/hr maybe? But mining is so boring that it's driving player out of the game, or driving player to afk at least.
iskflakes
#47 - 2013-05-03 17:37:02 UTC
If it isn't obvious, I suggest everybody go and buy as many battleships now as you can. You may not be able to reprocess them, but after the patch the prices will be 40m higher.

-
progodlegend
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-05-03 17:39:43 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Will insurance values be looked at? If not the current tier 1/2 will be a lot less viable for many pilots than the current tier 3 which seems a shame considering the effort being put into balancing them.



Insurance values are tied to the mineral costs, when they go up, the insurance will go up.

Though this raises the question, will the insurance react to the extra materials increase, or does it not include those. If it doesn't include them, then yes you are right insurance needs to be looked at. I'll make sure to bring that up at the next meeting, because that's a minor fix that may have been overlooked.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-05-03 17:42:22 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Will insurance values be looked at? If not the current tier 1/2 will be a lot less viable for many pilots than the current tier 3 which seems a shame considering the effort being put into balancing them.



Insurance values are tied to the mineral costs, when they go up, the insurance will go up.

Though this raises the question, will the insurance react to the extra materials increase, or does it not include those. If it doesn't include them, then yes you are right insurance needs to be looked at. I'll make sure to bring that up at the next meeting, because that's a minor fix that may have been overlooked.


Any chance you can fix the abbadon whilst you're there? :)

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-05-03 17:43:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello everyone!

The purpose of this post is to explain the last element of the battleship rebalance: build costs. We found that even internally this was a very sensitive subject, one which people had very strong feelings about, and so we spent a lot of time making sure that we went ahead with a good plan. We feel confident that we have that plan, and while we do appreciate feedback (as always), this proposal is very likely the way we will be proceeding at release.

Let me give you the 'what' first, then the 'why':

  • The AVERAGE build cost of a battleship is going up by around 40mil
  • Former tier 3 prices will not change substantially, and so the majority of the change in cost is carried by the former tier 1 and 2s.
  • Prices will be differentiated slightly by role ('attack' and 'disruption' being a bit cheaper than 'combat')

    • The reasons for the change are as follows:

    The primary goal of tiericide is to eliminate any explicit power difference between ships within a class. If the power within a class is more or less level across all ships (which it is after the rebalance), the price should also be level.

    So then, if prices are to be more level, where should this new price line be set? The obvious answer would be to just average the cost of all battleships and then set the prices at that average - top tier prices would come down, and bottom would go up. Unfortunately, with battleships, this was not possible. Top tier battleships represent an enormous amount of mineral consumption in EVE at their current costs. That means that lowering the cost of tier 3 battleships would have a recessionary effect on EVE's economy as mineral prices suffered.

    That means we are to have prices more equal, but also, we can't lower the prices of the top tier ships significantly. This felt a bit uncomfortable at first, causing certain Devs to say "OMGWTFZFBFBFBB!!" when they saw the proposal, but we looked into some metrics around player wealth and income and found that EVE players are making money faster and faster, and even new players should have no trouble enduring the bump in cost. On top of this, inflation provides room for cost increase as well.

    The result is that we all agree that this price increase should not hurt demand substantially, and reflects a more healthy overall design philosophy than the old tier system.

    Special Note: You will NOT be able to buy battleships now and then refine them for the increased cost after the changes go live. Like all previous tiericide changes we will use extra materials to implement this cost change.

    We hope you agree, and look forward to your feedback.

    CCP Rise



    The mineral supply community thanks you for your contribution.



    thankfully expecting that I spent all my money on armageddons and typhoons to resell later...

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #51 - 2013-05-03 17:44:19 UTC
    iskflakes wrote:
    If it isn't obvious, I suggest everybody go and buy as many battleships now as you can. You may not be able to reprocess them, but after the patch the prices will be 40m higher.



    by this time.. all the prices are ALREADY increased in JIta and amarr :P

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Hagika
    Standard Corp 123
    #52 - 2013-05-03 17:46:16 UTC
    Aglais wrote:
    The Raven will not be worth it's new price. At all.

    This forum needs a dislike button, too, as a note.


    Agreed, it will continue to sit in hangars. When every other BS, is far superior in damage and damage application are out there.

    The raven change is a rather poor one while its missile counter part the Phoon is superior in every way aside from range.
    Even then, cruise range for the phoon is plenty and Torp range as well considering its far superior damage application and matching dps.

    I really do wonder if CCP actually bothered to really have a look at the raven and its issues and yet continue to ignore all the feed back on the forum on just how poor of a change it really had.

    All the while Matar pilots are giddy on the phoon changes and even recognize that it is superior to the raven in almost every way.

    Even without torp changes, the Phoon actually makes them useful, unlike the Raven.
    Naomi Knight
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #53 - 2013-05-03 17:47:37 UTC
    Aglais wrote:
    The Raven will not be worth it's new price. At all.

    This forum needs a dislike button, too, as a note.

    Well maybe it will be used for pve , but what about the scorpion , noone uses it already and it costs what 90-95m isk now it will go up to 150m or such ,and what did it get +1 low slot :O
    Destoya
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #54 - 2013-05-03 17:47:55 UTC
    iskflakes wrote:
    If it isn't obvious, I suggest everybody go and buy as many battleships now as you can. You may not be able to reprocess them, but after the patch the prices will be 40m higher.


    You aren't wrong, but there's still a ton of people selling off tier one bc's and procurers for something like 50% of build cost; it takes a while for all the stockpiles to run out
    Manny Moons
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #55 - 2013-05-03 17:50:34 UTC
    progodlegend wrote:
    Insurance values are tied to the mineral costs, when they go up, the insurance will go up.

    Though this raises the question, will the insurance react to the extra materials increase, or does it not include those. If it doesn't include them, then yes you are right insurance needs to be looked at. I'll make sure to bring that up at the next meeting, because that's a minor fix that may have been overlooked.

    Just look at the lowly Procurer. Current build cost is about 21 million isk. You can buy one in Jita for 9 million. Platinum insurance payout is 2,043,391. That pretty much sums up the problem with "Extra Materials".
    progodlegend
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #56 - 2013-05-03 17:57:35 UTC
    Manny Moons wrote:
    progodlegend wrote:
    Insurance values are tied to the mineral costs, when they go up, the insurance will go up.

    Though this raises the question, will the insurance react to the extra materials increase, or does it not include those. If it doesn't include them, then yes you are right insurance needs to be looked at. I'll make sure to bring that up at the next meeting, because that's a minor fix that may have been overlooked.

    Just look at the lowly Procurer. Current build cost is about 21 million isk. You can buy one in Jita for 9 million. Platinum insurance payout is 2,043,391. That pretty much sums up the problem with "Extra Materials".


    I think it more exhibits a problem with the usefulness of the procurer if demand is so low that people aren't even bothering to build it.
    Jack Haydn
    Magellanic Itg
    Goonswarm Federation
    #57 - 2013-05-03 17:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Haydn
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Quote:
    Is there intention to ever roll these minerals back into the overall ship cost, so that ships have a price floor tied to the mineral price again?


    It would be nice, but aren't willing to underestimate the extreme patience of the player base and so its hard to imagine how we could do it in the forseeable future.


    I absolutely endorse the tiericide project, the role adjustments and the cost changes. However, I think you should definitely consider this some more. You are killing off the ship refining profession if the minerals are kept in the 2 baskets like that.

    The bulk of the BS will probably be sold and/or destroyed a year after the patch, especially since there's so many other investment opportunities this time and therefore less liquidity left for BS speculation. Also, at some point it's just not worth to keep the capital tied up in those BS, when you could hit many other speculations in the meantime and make more profit off the same money. The effect on the mineral market by any eventually remaining BS stocks should be minimal after sufficient time has passed. I mean, the mineral markets are /massive/ and even if they took a small dip, what's that compared to outright making T1 ship refinements are definite loss in most cases?
    Theia Matova
    Dominance Theory
    #58 - 2013-05-03 17:59:51 UTC
    Are you really so desperate to kill BS? First ABCs now since tierciding some BS are more difficult to fly and now they are even more costly? What the hell is this? Shocked

    This will increase use of ABCs for sure. Which I already disagree strongly against.

    Personally I think removing tiers from BSes was REALLY BAD idea. Its probably the only ship class that actually that really needed it.
    Grarr Dexx
    Blue Canary
    Watch This
    #59 - 2013-05-03 18:04:56 UTC
    People aren't making money faster. OTEC is skewing the values on that graph. This increase in build cost will further reduce battleship usage, even with the buffs they have coming.
    Zimmy Zeta
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2013-05-03 18:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
    I understand the reasoning behind those prices.
    Since I usually don't fly Battleships very often I do not care very much, personally.
    But my problem is that the increase in BS cost might draw even more players towards the still ridiculously overpowered and widely loathed tier 3 Battlecruisers.
    Is there any plan to increase their cost, too? I don't want to play Oracle Online...Ugh

    I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.