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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Asking for feedback on Certificate visibility

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Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
#101 - 2013-05-06 09:06:13 UTC
Regarding the second topic about what information i would be worried about showing public regarding my skills: any!!!

Regarding the whole certificates thing: Is it possible to get rid of any notification about any available certificate via notification config? (without removing any other notifications)

The less notification noise the better. Which is a rule the UI team doesnt seem to like, see the super annoying "agression noises".

Regards
Gal
John 1135
#102 - 2013-05-06 09:09:29 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Hey, Don't make new certificates! Add "Mass Drivers" and "Streamers" to the weapons!!!

Revamp POS! it is needed!!!

And
..
other
..
stuff!
...

Point. But also certs serve a purpose of helping people into the game and (if corp-customised) into corp roles. So that's a purpose that merits work I think. Assuming more players more often participating at a deeper level with the game = good.
Selmak Kado
The Maverick Navy
#103 - 2013-05-06 10:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Selmak Kado
When certificates came, we all thougth that this would be a great way to guide us to information about skills and how they connect to each other. In my opinion certificates should work in two fashions,

a. Work as an actual certificate, showing your character have actually trained these skills. In this sense it should be up to the player if he want these to be public or not. Taking away the public part, takes away grains of sand from the sanbox. Adding drag capability to it is nice!

b. Certificates should be a in depth guide to how skills corrolate to each other and what they are for. Lately alot this information have been stuck into the actual skills, removing any reason to view certificates in the first place. Example; you want to get into a carrier, you open certificates, you see the label capital ships, and you get all the information needed to get the "i can drive this carrier with support skills certificate, now im a real space captain #yarr".
BiggestT
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-05-06 11:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: BiggestT
Certificates are bad by design.

The only super important skills recruiters usually want are:

-Ship skills (which you hardly include in certificates???!!!)
-Basics like engineering, electronics, adv. weapon upgrades (so you can properly fit the ships you skilled for)
-T2 guns/equipment

2/3 of these you can instantly tell by the ships and fitting's they field on killboards (most are honest about that anyway).
The other one (fitting skills etc.) most people train early regardless.

You might get the odd question like, "Can you cyno?". This is only a short skill to train so it's not an issue.

Get rid of all these stupid fluff skill req's for certificates like "multi-tasking"; I have never needed this skill, locked targets are always limited by the ship itself anyway.

Make PVP specific certificates with the skill types above and you might actually get people using them.

And a big NO to listed elite/standard skills etc. It has no use as people may simply not have claimed them yet etc.
Alsyth
#105 - 2013-05-06 11:13:01 UTC
Allow us to create customized certificates in game and link them to others for them to save.
A skillplan simply cannot be as effective because it's linear.

I would then create certificates for my corpmates to skill for:
-bomber basic, advanced, elite
-Snipe Zealot basic, advanced, elite (using medium beam turrets and nano-shield certificates)
-Incursion Legion basic, advanced, elite (using medium beam turrets and armor tanking certificates)
etc.
And link them the exact corresponding fits.

Public certificates are useless for pvp players, unless you could make them public for corporation only.

For me who manages my corpies APIs and training, the combination of the above two would be absolutely awesome.



But at the moment I am not interested in certificates the slightest.
Except to say "core competency elite", but then again, the certificates are really outdated. Shield compensations are not utterly useless for most players, so I tend to rewrite skillplans without them for new players (thus skipping the certificate).
Alsyth
#106 - 2013-05-06 11:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
And also:

+1 to [CCP] certificates giving small bonuses (+0,+0.5,+1,+1.5% armor for armor reinforcement at different levels, etc.) as it would make some skills interesting. (shield compensation and tactical shield manipulation for instance)
+1 for a whole revamp with the new skills (sensor strenght skills, reactive armor hardener...)
+1 for some agents asking you certificates on top of/instead of standings, makes sense
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#107 - 2013-05-06 12:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Talsha Talamar
My basic problem with the current certificates is that they are still to generic and abstract
as well as that there is no point in giving your enemy any kind of intelligence for free.

Also there are so many certificates that they seem
to add another level of complexity for the new player and
at the same time create a refuge from really understanding what skills do.

If certificates were more down to earth and provided essential skill templates for specific roles
they would be much more useful and probably used.
(tackler, inventor, t1 industrialist, freighter captain...)



Additionally I would love to see customizable certificates for player Corps:


  • Defining custom certificates on corp/alliance level
    • This would allow every corp to communicate clearly to new and old player what skills it expects from them to fill a specific role.
    It would allow for both quality control and skill path orientation

  • Connecting corporation level certificates with titles
    • Serves as a little motivational boost and allows the next point to be implemented.

  • Querying those certificates from the corporation interface
    • Darn we need at least two Interdictors, who is online and can fly them?
    How many potential cap pilots do we actually have?




[quote=Alsyth]Allow us to create customized certificates in game and link them to others for them to save.
A skillplan simply cannot be as effective because it's linear.
Aducat Ragnarson
Blootered Bastards
#108 - 2013-05-06 12:44:04 UTC
Talsha Talamar wrote:


[...]

  • Defining custom certificates on corp/alliance level
    • This would allow every corp to communicate clearly to new and old player what skills it expects from them to fill a specific role.
    It would allow for both quality control and skill path orientation

  • Connecting corporation level certificates with titles
    • Serves as a little motivational boost and allows the next point to be implemented.

  • Querying those certificates from the corporation interface
    • Darn we need at least two Interdictors, who is online and can fly them?
    How many potential cap pilots do we actually have?




^This

It would really help with the organizational effort of leading a corporation, both at a small level, where the corporation leaders/directors/vets have to explain to each new person what he can/should skill for, that would allow him to fly with the other people. It would scale perfectly to alliance and large corp levels, where one can use this system to publish the accepted fleet doctrines.
JahMun
Doomheim
#109 - 2013-05-06 13:46:10 UTC
Current certificates are useless, remove the CCP certificates and add custom certificates! Custom certificates would actually be usefull, many good ideas in this thread about them.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-05-06 16:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
John 1135 wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Hey, Don't make new certificates! Add "Mass Drivers" and "Streamers" to the weapons!!!

Revamp POS! it is needed!!!

And
..
other
..
stuff!
...

Point. But also certs serve a purpose of helping people into the game and (if corp-customised) into corp roles. So that's a purpose that merits work I think. Assuming more players more often participating at a deeper level with the game = good.


I'm aware of that... the biggest piont is that this feature need the lowest number of devs possible, 2 at most, and working in a system that would be something like my other post. Crafted in a way that leaves the hardest work and the freedom in the hand of players.

maybe 3 devs if add this system with the training queue, so you select the desired certificate and it gets to the training queue (if you have the books.)

But I'm sure that there are other important features that really deserve allot of attention. Especially the infrastructure like the POS and SOV changes, that would allow small alliances and new players to find a way easier out of the "mission runner" game.

So, I only ask that CCP save man-hours in this feature.

Alx Warlord wrote:

CCP Ytterbium,

Certificates are not interesting at all, because they don't really show your skill capabilities towards a task. The skill list show it better. They are too generic. Don't say if you are a good explorer, a good combat pilot, or a good miner. And definitely don't show if your skills matches the required for some corp to accept you.

So, I suggest you to take all this certificates out, and make new ones that actually show how are the character skills towards all EVE tasks and ships and situations...

But if you guys are going to plan all the certificates, and all the meaningful variations to cover all aspects of eve, you will have to hire hundreds of DEVS just for it... or you will end up with a frustrating feature in hands...

So I will give you the best option, Make certificates like the real life certificates (ISO 9002 for example), this certificates are not made by the govern. And Eve Certificates should not be made by CCP.

Put it in the hand of corporations!!!!

Allow corps CEO and directors to assembly custom Certificates, so corp members(or in case for an oppen certificate everyone), could click on them and check if the certificate is compatible with their skill, If so, they can claim and it becomes visible to the corp members. And the certificated pilot can post on chats to show it. If the corp CEO change the certificate people will have to claim it again.

I bet that EVE University will be the corp that will certify most of pilots with open certificates. and as most corps trust on them, this certificates will have value! (other then the current system)

also some big corps will need its pilots to train for their certificates.... or will only accept certified pilots, so probably the Director will only allow players certified by them to join.

What is your oppinion on this CCP Ytterbium? Don't you think this save your time and gives a good feature?

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#111 - 2013-05-06 21:07:03 UTC
Some certificates are good guidelines ... others are, well, not.

E.g. not so good:
Rare Ore Refiner - Improved ... requiring several processing skills at level 5 (not Arkonor, Bistot, Mercoxit) and
Rare Ore Refiner - Elite ... requiring the missing skills at level 5 (Arkonor, Bistot, Mercoxit)
What is missing?
Rare Ore Refiner - ??? with Arkonor, Bistot, Mercoxit
So, that a recruiter would know that you could use T2 crystals for mining

In case of processing skills, there are two things:
- refining the ore and
- using the crystals for mining
One of them is covered (refining) the other one isn't (at least for Arkonor, Bistot, Mercoxit)

For mining, level 4 of each processing skill is enough.
For refining, level 5 is required only in certain cases (outposts or some stations)

Anyway, recruitment would probably ask for a key and check your stats via eve-board or other things.

Developer commitment ... ask players to rework the certificates!
They might be able to provide good ideas. Then the certificates might be even more useful.
Concentrate on the "guideline" part and care less about the sharing part (-> plenty of tools available)
my 2 cents
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-05-06 22:10:37 UTC
Please do NOT get rid of certificates. Right now they stink, but they would be very helpful if they were better. Right now I'm training up some friends in the game, but when I'm not there I can at least point them in the right direction.

Frankly the game has a bunch of UI issues and doesn't communicate information well. Certificates are just one example. Ships are another. Skills are okay, but could be a lot better.

There's no easy way to see the ships in the game broken up by role and by suggested or required skills/certificates.

I imagine creating a ship browser and next to each ship is five pips that indicate your ability to fly that ship/role. It wouldn't be comprehensive to everything, but it would help communicate what you can do in EVE and how good you are at flying certain ships.

This browser with your ships/roles would be visible to anyone who has a standing with you of your choice (terrible to excellent and then no one).

But this will require a commitment to maintain or else you'll just return to what you have now... an outdated mess.
Caljiav Ocanon
The Holy Rollers
#113 - 2013-05-07 10:40:33 UTC
Just remove them already, save the server/database resources for other stuff.
Shiva LaFayette
EvE-nt Horizon
#114 - 2013-05-07 11:35:34 UTC
If you want certificates to be used in EvE, check out the way certificates are used in real life.

Usually certificates get framed and pinned to walls in offices.

In some rare circumstances they are entrance cards to (more or less) exclusive circles.

None of both is of any relevance to EvE - so why not simply bury (pod) certificates and concentrate on better aproches to improve EvE gameplay. Maybe EvE-Olution once will clone them back in game for some really good reason.

Face the truth - there currently is no need for certificates.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2013-05-07 14:32:14 UTC
What if you could export a certificate straight from a fitting, then train skills from that certificate. It would get the assigned fitting name on a local folder, but the skills would only be applied that were plugged in, the rest would have to be bought obviously.

Other certificates could also be generated, and maybe attached to fittings to increase the effectiveness of the fit...

That way your corp could say, check out these 5 ships, get into A first, then B, then C, etc...
commander aze
#116 - 2013-05-07 17:48:52 UTC
certification holds no benefit... it gives away information about your target. also is not used for hiring purposes either... everyone checks api so we can see all their skills

Commander Aze For CSM XII

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=506400

Support the Community #Broadcast4Reps
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#117 - 2013-05-07 18:05:27 UTC
It looks to me like you're approaching the problem from the wrong end. I've never seen anyone in game who publishes their certificates, and I have no idea what the point would be. We have more granular access to that information via the API and evewho--granting that evewho isn't an in-game resource.

We do use certificates, as a tool to help newbies, but the root problem is that we have to tell newbies what they are, why they're useful, when they're useful, when they aren't useful (because seriously, some of them are WTF) where the interface is, etc., etc., etc. It seems to me that you should worry about whether they're useful and well-integrated into the NPE and the game before you worry about something like this. Unless you're fishing for a role outside of skill training guidance? Thinking of them as EVE's version of achievements? I don't see how that would work, honestly.

Basically, what Quintessen said.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Stegas Tyrano
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-05-08 01:00:33 UTC
Integrate them into the application process. Let corporations set out their own certificates for different roles. Then when pilots applies to corp he can claim the certificates that he is eligible for and have them displayed in his application. There could even be a separate tab for Corp Certificates so directors, members can see what skills other corp members have.

Herping your derp since 19Potato - [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2403364][Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts[/url]
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-05-09 09:27:10 UTC
Quintessen wrote:

There's no easy way to see the ships in the game broken up by role and by suggested or required skills/certificates.

I imagine creating a ship browser and next to each ship is five pips that indicate your ability to fly that ship/role. It wouldn't be comprehensive to everything, but it would help communicate what you can do in EVE and how good you are at flying certain ships.
This browser with your ships/roles would be visible to anyone who has a standing with you of your choice (terrible to excellent and then no one).

But this will require a commitment to maintain or else you'll just return to what you have now... an outdated mess.



This is the only useful thing certificate could do. This is probably a very good suggestion Quintessen has made and is the best idea I've read for certificates so far.

It will be very complex to implement though. This is because the the five "pips" that would appear on the ship fitting screen would give you an overall idea of your skills to the ship AND its fitted modules. So it would have to average out the level of certificates for everything on your ship and also decide which certificates were relevent depending on what modules are fitted.
You could then click on on the "pips" and have it expand and show all levels of certificates that are applying to the ship to see what is bringing your average down and where you need to concentrate SP to bring it up. This way a new pilot who jumps very quickly into a battleship can see that they only score 1/5 and can see that they really shouldn't be flying that ship until they improve that score.

Complex but actually a very good tool.

Am I making sense?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2013-05-10 03:03:43 UTC
I display my important certificates publicly and it bothers me that I am so alone in this. I am in favor of a system that gets certificates to be used more, as long as I still have control over it. As it stands, I keep the majority of my certificates invisible because they are either redundant or do not accurately reflect my abilities.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."