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Asking for feedback on Certificate visibility

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Master Technique
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-05-03 15:56:22 UTC
I agree people need to stop saying they are useless, because if you actually read this thread, it is apparent that people are using them to track skills stuff for themselves, or to help guide them if they are truly new to Eve.

I think the latter is extremely important because Eve is infamous for its steep learning curve. In light of that, I suppose my recommendation would be to cut back on how many there are, significantly. Re-design them as a tool to show new players what they need to semi-competently sit in a ship, fit it, use its intended weapon system, and activate its intended tank.

Another idea I have wondered about is actually using them as a license in the eyes of NPCs. For instance, higher level mission agents not allowing you to run combat missions for them unless you have a basic set of certs for the class of ship that is required for those level of missions. The NPCs obviously don't want under-qualified pilots representing them in space! In a similar vein, I thought they could be used as a license for the Navy Factions ships, but I think that would require keeping the higher level ones, which don't really serve as much of a purpose as the basics.

Lastly, I think the people saying they want customizable ones for corps/alliances should look into creating medals instead. Create a skill list your pilots have to have, they request the medal when then say they have the skills, check with API, then tag 'em. Then you have a quick indicator for things like if they qualify for a reimbursement.
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-05-03 16:04:11 UTC
Most certificates promote long skills trains for V's for things that are not good uses of training time like t2 large spec specilization V's
Khoul Ay'd
The Affiliation
#43 - 2013-05-03 16:22:42 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Don't see any good coming out of public certificates, as they won't be looked up unless for intel in pvp.


I think many people overlook the value of using certificates as a form of disinformation in the intelligence arena. You can selectively choose which certificates you make public. If I only advertise my low skilled certs and leave off my elites, and my enemy chooses to believe this am I not gaining an advantage, at least in the first engagement?

Obviously an experienced intelligence agent should not fall for this, but what is it they say about one being born every minute...

The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-05-03 16:23:13 UTC
C DeLeon wrote:
Stop saying certificates are useless!

I'm still using it to follow my skill progression on my alts and it helps in the process of long-term skillqueue planning. It's not useless it's just outdated a little bit.


I am surprised to see so many supporters of certificates, since I have thought they were a joke since my first days in Eve. I would not trust a gaming company to tell me what I should be training. Every company, not just CCP, seems to have a set of weird and unrealistic ideas about what a new person in their game should be doing. This is part of their marketing and causes a type of game company blindness. For this reason any certificate created by CCP is likely to be disputable, and deemed insufficient, silly or meaningless.

Which is why the real certificates should be built by players. This also fits in with the sandbox theme of the game. If TEST has a stupid 30 day training program then we can laugh at them (or copy a good program), but CCP stays away from the fray. Additional requirements for flying ships or doing missions are not needed.

The problem with all of this is that the api and webtools already solve the problem for corporations. Which is why further development may not be worth the developer time, unless there is a secondary benefit (less character loading lag).

Theia Matova wrote:

so hmm in summary
* don't take public certificates away
* don't make comparison for certificates
* make comparison to skills since thats what really matters?

Certificates have purpose it does not need changing?


If they told you that they could decrease character loading lag and double the number of people in fights would you still want to keep them? I am opposed to doing anything unless there is a side benefit.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-05-03 16:31:49 UTC
Generally speaking certs are only good for helping new players skill through the first few months. Getting a weapon cert, a core cert, and a defensive cert can help them end up with a decently solid character after a few months.

The issue with many of the certs is that they're ********. The higher level defensive certs require all damage type compensation skills to 5, but what's the point when most players are going to either use active hardeners or use passive hardeners on one or two damage types? Do we really need all racial drone specializations to 5 to be effective with drones? The system really breaks down outside of a few of the core certs.

The other issue is that anyone who needs to know what your character can do isn't going to ask for a list of certs, they're going to ask for an API key and use that. Why use a less complete and useful tool (certs) when a better tool exists that gives a complete picture of what you have trained and what you are currently training?

Certs need to help new players come up with a skill plan that makes sense.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#46 - 2013-05-03 16:34:10 UTC
While I have some ELITE certificates open to public they do not fill any role in EvE. Most of the certificates are wrong/do not help even when flying a ship and you follow the recommended certificates on the ship info panel. By that they do not help new players to actually use their skills correctly or guide them in their skillplan. Either rework all the certificates, remove them (when it is easy to do) or just plain ignore them in your development plan.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#47 - 2013-05-03 17:18:18 UTC
Investing developer resources into this broken monstrosity of a system seems like a huge waste of time.

What would be useful is a way to know by which skills a certain item/ship is affected. That way if you want to be the ultimate rifter pilot you could just fit up your dream setup, then get an overview of the skills you may want to train to get better at flying it.


Minmatar Balancing, 3 suggestions.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#48 - 2013-05-03 17:42:14 UTC
I think it would be awesome if we could make customizable certificates.

For example: Say I had a noob that wanted to train a caracal and asked me what skills they would need. I would create a "caracal certificate". In this certificate I could have a missile skills sub certificate, a buffer shield tanking sub certificate, Navigation sub certificate (MWD skills), core skills sub certificate (fitting skills needed for a fit), Other sub certificate (Warp disruptor and maybe a stasis web). In these sub certificates I can highlight skills as critical or "can't fly it without these" and important "these skills will make you more effective".

From there I can save this certificate. Then I can drag and drop it to them to save. This would allow them to see skills they need to train. Also, if this certificate could swap over to a skill plan where it would be quick and easy for them to right click -> market details to buy the skills. Boom. Trade-able skill plans.


Back on topic: certificate are useless. Removing them from the game would have minor effect. The most use I have ever gotten out of them is I have maybe 2-3 times found a useful skill by going through the certificates. They aren't even a useful intel source because no one leaves them on public.

It would be more useful to just get rid off the basic/standard/improved/elite and just have "groups" of skills. For example say I wanted to train ECM for a falcon. I could find the "ECM certificate" and it would have relevant ECM skills (perhaps laid out in a tree format showing prereqs) that I could hover over and find out more info on each skill. That would actually be useful to find out about skills you didn't know existed.
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-05-03 17:55:23 UTC
The entire cert system either needs to have a good solid review, followed by an overhaul or it needs to be left alone.

I don't really want to give away any more information than I have to when someone runs info on me, so I don't like to display many certs. Even if it just displayed how many certs I had I still wouldn't be down with that. It gives an idea as to how skilled a character is and even that is more information than I wish to give someone looking to fight me.

I suppose being able to compare certs with other people would be "interesting" but since so many certs are pointless anyway I cant say my care-cup is overflowing to see this happen.


...and really thats the biggest problem for doing anything with certs. What is the point of them? Really, the only reason I even claim them is so the damn button stops blinking at me. You can say they help newbies with skill training but honestly as a newbie I benefited much more from talking to people and playing with EVE mon than I ever did from reviewing certs. Indeed, I think I wasted more time with certs than I saved.

If you want my honest feedback I think certs need a much better reason to exist than currently they have.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#50 - 2013-05-03 18:32:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Remove the ability to set Certificates as public


This is ****ing stupid. Anything but this!

I haven't set my certs visibile, and I'm unlikely to do that, although once I get Core Competency maxed out (if I ever do) I might set that one visible. But still, why take something away that players other than me might find useful?

One idea: Allow each player the choice of making each individual certificate visible by:

  • Other members of his corp
  • Other members of his corp (except when he's in an NPC corp)
  • Other members of his alliance
  • Everyone to whom he has set his standing as Excellent
  • Everyone to whom he has set his standing as Good or better
  • Everyone to whom he has set his standing to neutral or better
  • No one
Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-05-03 18:41:41 UTC
Meh, no need to even look at it... they make ok skilling guides for new people but don't have much relevance to anyone else. No one has them set to public because they give away too much information. I don't see any reason to spend any time changing or looking at them as most players won't see any benefit from it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#52 - 2013-05-03 18:45:42 UTC
I wouldn't waste dev time on this.

Certs are for newbros to figure out a semi appropriate path to certain ships when they first start out.

And making them public is either to show off something hard, or is just a good way to tell your prospective opponent what skills you have and what ships you fly ahead of time.

If there were a "Space Pimpin'" certificate, I'd make that one public. If they were achievement style stuff, like "100 players podded", or "Scrap-monger" (salvagers), then yeah, I can see them being used.

But unless you entirely revamp what they are for, no, I wouldn't waste the time to do it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
mkint
#53 - 2013-05-03 18:45:56 UTC
I think for certs to become even more useful, a few things should happen:

a) every single skill worked into it. Or even optional skills and certs simply to show how every last skill connect. Plus ships pages, and perhaps modules. Maybe tie it into fitting management.

b) combine the cert planner and the skill queue.

It'd be pretty freakin' awesome if the cert browser had every last bit of functionality for skill planning, scheduling, browsing. Make the system such an indispensable tool that people use it every single day. Combine in that all the tools to share any possible skill information with various levels of granularity.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#54 - 2013-05-03 18:49:23 UTC
First and foremost, any information on our character sheet should be voluntary, not mandatory. Give the player the option to hide any and all data.

Secondly, incorporate this in the corporate mechanics that we can pull up a 'detailed' character sheet which shows not just certificates but employment history and the like when the character applies, IF they submit to this level of detail.

Thirdly, incorporate into those very same mechanics the API system, so that it's in-game and no longer external.



Focusing on the actual Op, since my protest for less available detail is probably going to be ignored: The certificates, regretfully, don't reflect very well for any metric beyond 'skills complete'. It sounds great in theory, but if you need a player who is capable of armor tanking an Amarr cruiser and using t2 lasers while having the supporting skills to make them effective at it, the certificates are so convoluted and confusing (with many skills used that are not necessary, etc), that it's easier just to ask the person and scan their ship when they show up.

Overhauling the system, not just for visibilities sake, is probably a great suggestion. Please refer to the very helpful and visually accessible listing you made in the player orientation videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLF614A7A6461E61E1&feature=player_detailpage&v=aI4VkO6qr0U#t=98s

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#55 - 2013-05-03 18:53:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Remove the ability to set Certificates as public


People tend to be protective of their SP and abilities, so I'd say this is definitely the right answer.

Quote:

As another topic for you guys to voice your feedback to, what information would you feel worried about if it was displayed as public by default and why?


I don't want anything visible which would give someone any insight into my current tactical status. This includes whether I'm in a fleet, undocked, what ship I'm in, where I am, how many SP I have, what SP I have, etc. I don't mind things like bounty status, sec status, employment history, and such.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-05-03 19:04:51 UTC
Yeah, repeating the idea of player/corp/alliance created certificates. The existing ones are kinda arbitrary and have some weird quirks to them, allowing us to define our own would make far more sense and be much more useful for nudging players in the direction of training useful skills.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-05-03 19:21:35 UTC
Certificates are fun, but they suffer from the problem that they have no gameplay mechanic whatsoever.

I'd like it if granting a certificate should have a very small bonus to some part of the game in one way or other; Shield tanking granting .5% bonus to shield hp for instance would be interesting, representing the synergistic learning of what the certificate grants.

Or perhaps certificates grant a small standing bonus with certain NPC corps/agents.

Granting certificates should cost ISK (and perhaps relevant materials) but come with some item as a 'graduation present' to add another item generation mechanism in the game and present an ISK sink.

corp/alliance visibility settings of certificates sounds useful to me.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-05-03 19:37:57 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Daedalus II wrote:
The only certificate I show publicly is Hull tanking: elite, because as we all know, real men hull tank.

I think certificates should be changed into what people expected them to be when they were introduced; a collection of skills an experienced person can define and then distribute to less experienced persons to indicate what they need to train to reach a specific goal (to join a corp, to fit in a fleet, and so on). This is pretty much the only thing that would make certificates truly useful.

I guess the original certificates could be kept, at least for the basic stuff, but there need to be a possibility to inject new custom certificates.

This also opens up other interesting things, such as personal skill planning (like a built in EveMon). Also new types of services where you for example could sell fully fitted ships + certificate to fly them properly.



mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates



Problem with doctrines is that they evolve and change drastically in time - Unless You make player made certificates this will not work.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-05-03 19:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
What are the goals of certificates beyond skills?


  • Simplification, that makes goal-setting more easy and immediate thanks to the "recommended" tab of the info panel of every subcapital ship. They should look like "Brief Skill"
  • Privacy, if you don't want to show all your character data you can use these.


Issues that frustrate this design:


  • Currently, I have 250 skills trained to various levels, and I have 70 certificates. There's little simplification in this: they look and work like another layer of skills.
  • All those who want to see your personal data will ask you for api keys and be done with it, they won't bother looking into certificates that they don't even know the meaning of.


How I think they could be made better:

  1. Remove most of them, they should be a "condensation" of skills while instead they are only another mess we don't need at all
  2. Less levels. It does not make sense to have 5 levels of certificates when the generic prescription is to train almost all skills to level 4, or 5, or at least in some cases to 3. There are strange cases that should not be covered by certificates.
  3. Certificates are a tool for newbies. Certificates like "Cruiser Advanced Rail Turrets" are useless, in my opinion all "advanced" certificates are useless.
  4. Starter profession and Core certificates are complessively good.
Atomic Option
NO Tax FAT Stacks
#60 - 2013-05-03 20:09:21 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Actually I'd also like the ability to set them on visible to corp/alliance members only, etc.

Nice.

So I'm imagining here certificates that are created by your corporation/alliance, and can be made visible to only your corp/alliance so they can see what their pilots can do.

A finesse would be a Corp Certs View, that lets appropriate officers get the count of pilots with each of their custom certs. So they can see how well prepared they are to fly given doctrines (and can use that to plan new ones).


Remove the current certs. They're useless.

The corp/alliance certs are a great idea and should be combined with a rework of Decorations. Make them automatically awarded when corp/alliance set criteria are met. The criteria could be anything from skills trained to kills in a certain ship or ship class or with a certain weapon class or kills of a some other corp or kills against corps with certain standings (RvB could use that)

Since it's folded into a new Decorations system, the certificate would stay with the character after leaving the corp or alliance. This way you could get an ingame "degree" from places like EVE University that would stick with you after you left and could be shown to a corp you're applying to. These decorations would be visible to alliance by default but could be discarded, made private, made public or made visible just to corp. If you discard a certificate you'd have to rejoin the corp that gave it to you to get it back.