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Dev Blog: WantToTrade: Tags for Security Status

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CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2013-05-02 15:59:14 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Aye. But for those that want to rat up their sec they are looking to receive a slight Nerf in comparison to what they can do now with chair. Ratting.

Personally I haven't made it past shooting one rat before I decide -9 something isn't so bad in a while.


We raised this exact same question when discussing this internally. It is my understanding that ratting in lowsec, collecting tags, and turning them in will be comparable to the sec gain that can be obtained by currently chain-ratting in 0.0 space, simply moved into lowsec. So its actually a buff for those that used to only chain-rat for sec in lowsec, and its a buff above 0.0 chain-ratting if you factor in extra payment for tags into the question. Also, the bounty from the rats offsets the cost of turning in the tags. Unless I'm grossly mistaken here, this is not a step backwards for sec raising as an activity in any way, this is something the CSM was adamant about while this was being hammered out.

Everything Hans said is legit. The CSM had some good input to this feature when we presented it to them a few months back.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#62 - 2013-05-02 16:00:32 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Two step wrote:
How is it possible that someone so awesome as CCP Masterplan has so few likes? You people...


Why would I give likes to people who appear to make raising sec status slower or more of a pita?Straight


Um, did you even read the blog? How do you get slower out of that?



Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain unless the buffs to sec gains on that rats is dramatic.

Removing chain ratting will increase sec gain if you are consistently making less than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes
Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain if you are consistently making more than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes

Based on the stats we have, the number of people in the former group is significantly larger than the number in the second group, and overall this won't be a net nerf to the amount of security status gains.

And you are really really helping those who gain sec status by running L4 missions.

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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#63 - 2013-05-02 16:00:50 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses.


Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status?

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-05-02 16:00:54 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Two step wrote:
How is it possible that someone so awesome as CCP Masterplan has so few likes? You people...


He obviously needs to both post more and do more low sec touching. Mmmm?

Don't tempt me to start touching those places. I'm sure HR would have concerns.

HR: "Here, point on this starmap where the bad man CCP Masterplan touched you"

Vincent Athena wrote:

Edit: "All CONCORD->character standings will be wiped" has a possibly unintended consequence. Some people mine is solar systems where the only station to refine at is a CONCORD station. Having a high CONCORD standing reduces the refine cost. Now you are taking away the one and only way to reduce refine cost at these stations: Have a high sec status. Recommendation: Only wipe CONCORD standings if they are less than zero. Let those who put in the effort to get cheap refine keep the fruits of their effort.

As someone with a very high sec status I'd like this as well ;)
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-05-02 16:01:43 UTC
Ok you guys have one little thing wrong about chain sec ratting, you can get 3 sec buffs per system atm, meaning in 3 systems in 15min i can get NINE sec bumps.

You can curently get one from a rat in a belt, a rat in an anom, and a drone rat in an anom. go out and try it ill wait. Then tell me this isent a nerf to sec ratting.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-05-02 16:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Aye. But for those that want to rat up their sec they are looking to receive a slight Nerf in comparison to what they can do now with chair. Ratting.

Personally I haven't made it past shooting one rat before I decide -9 something isn't so bad in a while.


We raised this exact same question when discussing this internally. It is my understanding that ratting in lowsec, collecting tags, and turning them in will be comparable to the sec gain that can be obtained by currently chain-ratting in 0.0 space, simply moved into lowsec. So its actually a buff for those that used to only chain-rat for sec in lowsec, and its a buff above 0.0 chain-ratting if you factor in extra payment for tags into the question. Also, the bounty from the rats offsets the cost of turning in the tags. Unless I'm grossly mistaken here, this is not a step backwards for sec raising as an activity in any way, this is something the CSM was adamant about while this was being hammered out.

Everything Hans said is legit. The CSM had some good input to this feature when we presented it to them a few months back.


Sounds like a bunch of syncophantry to me!


Blink


e: To post something serious, I suspect that the people who currently only chain rat in 0.0 disagree that this is a buff - their rate of gain, between the change to the timer and the nerf to the actual size of the gain, is considerably lower. But we'll see - it depends on how much the tag processing fee is and what the tags cost on the market.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#67 - 2013-05-02 16:04:21 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses.


Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status?

Yes they do. My mission running alts all are +5 from sec gain from killing rats in missions. Im still +5 from before I moved into W.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#68 - 2013-05-02 16:07:32 UTC
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes.


That is not in question.

What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.


I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.

How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system?

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#69 - 2013-05-02 16:11:22 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes.


That is not in question.

What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.


I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.

How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system?

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."

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Frozen fanfiction
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#70 - 2013-05-02 16:13:48 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
you won't have to jump around quite so much.



Nerfing piracy by catering to lazy?


Yet another question we were sure to raise internally while this was being discussed - and statistically, this movement was not creating the conflict and killmails that you would expect, (as it was often done in things like stealth bombers) so I am satisfied that this change is not a nerf to piracy at the end of the day. In fact, concentrating the activity in lowsec instead of spreading it between low and 0.0 space, combined with the chokepoints created by the tag turn-ins, actually serves as a buff to piracy in my opinion.


Also, people ratting for sec status are generally the pirates to start with, and they know what's up already. If they don't want a fight, you aren't going to force one out of them if they're competent.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Zircon Dasher
#71 - 2013-05-02 16:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
CCP Masterplan wrote:

Removing chain ratting will increase sec gain if you are consistently making less than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes
Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain if you are consistently making more than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes

Based on the stats we have, the number of people in the former group is significantly larger than the number in the second group, and overall this won't be a net nerf to the amount of security status gains.


Of course the former group is larger since it also includes mission runners, explorers, and the like who are not shooting crosses for sec gains specifically! So while the change does not result in a net decrease in the net number of security gains in the game, it may still constitute a net decrease for those who are actively engaged in raising sec.

Not sure if trolling......

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#72 - 2013-05-02 16:17:16 UTC
I can see reasoning behind this - more incentive for going into low-sec, more possible conflict in low sec, (slight) ISK sink from turning in tags.
However, I am (slightly) sceptical about it turning into: want sec status? Ok, just pay a bit of ISK and *poof* you are no longer 'pirate' - at least now you have to work for it; removing consequence from low-sec actions further blurs the line between 'good pirates' and 'bad pirates' - if anything we need to widen that - EVE really needs more cause & consequence and risk & reward, not less of it.
Ofc, I guess result depends on costs of turning in tags and spawn rates of new rats, so reserving judgement
Note: I am not talking about high-sec gankers here, they are subject to totally different meta anyway
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#73 - 2013-05-02 16:17:35 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses.


Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status?

Yes they do. My mission running alts all are +5 from sec gain from killing rats in missions. Im still +5 from before I moved into W.


You are right, that is the way it works now, hence my rather high sec status too. I'm just questioning whether it will be so also after the change.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Sheena Tzash
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-05-02 16:17:59 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes.


That is not in question.

What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.


I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.

How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system?

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."


Like that :P

The idea is that at least with some audit / history of sec status change you could at least spot a pattern of 'repeat offenders' and treat them as such.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2013-05-02 16:20:32 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."

you know the bigger problem is a guy who can't enter highsec is gonna have a hell of a time awoxing anyone in highsec
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#76 - 2013-05-02 16:22:33 UTC
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes.


That is not in question.

What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.


I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.

How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system?

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."


Like that :P

The idea is that at least with some audit / history of sec status change you could at least spot a pattern of 'repeat offenders' and treat them as such.

Ooooo, I like that. A plot of sec status history over the lifetime of the character would do nicely.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Sheena Tzash
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-05-02 16:25:59 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."

you know the bigger problem is a guy who can't enter highsec is gonna have a hell of a time awoxing anyone in highsec


Well thats what the tags are for... you turn um into low sec stations to give you access back into high.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#78 - 2013-05-02 16:33:33 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses.


Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status?

Yes they do. My mission running alts all are +5 from sec gain from killing rats in missions. Im still +5 from before I moved into W.


You are right, that is the way it works now, hence my rather high sec status too. I'm just questioning whether it will be so also after the change.

I doubt they would change the system for low and null ratting, but leave the old system in place for high sec missions. Its easier to just change it for all rat killing in all space.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#79 - 2013-05-02 16:36:00 UTC
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes.


That is not in question.

What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.


I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.

How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system?

"I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."


Like that :P

The idea is that at least with some audit / history of sec status change you could at least spot a pattern of 'repeat offenders' and treat them as such.


Ahhaa.. So you're suggesting a new feature? Like the employment history but for the sec status?. Fair enough.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2013-05-02 16:37:25 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:

Removing chain ratting will increase sec gain if you are consistently making less than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes
Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain if you are consistently making more than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes

Based on the stats we have, the number of people in the former group is significantly larger than the number in the second group, and overall this won't be a net nerf to the amount of security status gains.


Of course the former group is larger since it also includes mission runners, explorers, and the like who are not shooting crosses for sec gains specifically! So while the change does not result in a net decrease in the net number of security gains in the game, it may still constitute a net decrease for those who are actively engaged in raising sec.

Not sure if trolling......

When I ran those numbers, I was only looking at people with a negative sec status, for exactly that reason

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law