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House Sarum “gearing up for next stage in Reclaiming”, aggressive warnings from Federation and Repub
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Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#181 - 2013-05-05 05:53:37 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
War is fought among political entities: states, to put it simply.


You should pick up a dictionary sometime. That is one definition of war. That is not the only defintion of war.

War is also defined as "a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism" and "a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end."

Quote:
That is just one of many ways to handle it. Fear can do so as well, as Caldari Prime proved. You don't need to use such weaponry, only show you can and you will. People value their lives highly. As for joining the Federation fleet, for that you need training, and you need a ship that can take you there, and if we're holding space controlled enough to threaten with bombing your planets, you can be sure your Navy would have ceased to exist long before.


We don't fear you. We value our freedom more than we value our lives.


You also need to work on your literacy. I was refering to those Matari who already live in the Federation, the ones who will be left to avenge the rest of us if you manage to succeed in an assault upon the Republic.

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All we did is because something that happened so many years ago no one alive remembers


Oh, we remember. You can be damned sure of that.

Quote:
nd a historian would tell you that probably no people alive in the Minmatarr Republic (except those freed by the Empire, or the "Elder Fleet" or the few released by freedom fighters) have actually ever known slavery.


So long as our cousins know slavery, we know slavery. Unlike you Amarr, we do not lack empathy.


Quote:
Actually, we can if we'd like.


You sound like an alcoholic or drug addict. "We can quit whenever we want. We, uh...just don't want to yet!"
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#182 - 2013-05-05 06:26:16 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
As I said, I agree with you, won't enter to discuss such an idea with you. Just pointing it out because it often gets equalled one to the other.

Ava Starfire wrote:

Im pretty sure you did not just claim that 1 raid to rescue our kin places us in the moral miasma that the Amarr are in for 700 years of torment, abuse, kidnapping, and murder.

At least I hope you didnt.

There are degrees of "right" and "wrong". Pretty sure we'll have sunk to the Empire's level when we're carrying its people off in chains for a 700 year stint of forced cultural conversion.


The invasion of planets through the "Elder Fleet", the Defiants invading the Bleak Lands not once but twice, continuous raids to free slaves, attacking a CONCORD station and breaking international treaties... No, captain Starfire, I don't think there are degrees of "right" or "wrong" once this scale has been achieved. If you had stolen a candy, sure, you wouldn't be as "evil" as we "are", but as it stands, with whole planetary invasions (currently happening in the Bleak Lands, by the way) you're in the dirt as much as we are.

I hope you feel it's worth it, that it's necessary, just as we do. It's a terrible path to walk elsehow.


You speak as if there's something "wrong" or "evil" about liberating our own people from those who sought, and still seek, to destroy us.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-05-05 07:04:49 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
You all bicker like this is the worst thing in the universe that could happen to anyone. There are nightmares a thousand times worse than being taken in an Amarrian slave raid. They are so bad that in retrospect you might actually have preferred uniting under an Amarrian banner than face what lies out there alone.

The criminal empires want nothing more than to exploit everyone as thoroughly as possible, relying on the basest of human instincts to survive.

The Sabik throw away their humanity and compassion in favor of mind-obliterating excess, making revelry in the pain of others.

The Sansha scrape at our doors with their metal limbs and minds made of silicon synapses, seeking to make us 'perfect' through an unnatural oneness.

The Sleepers lurk in a world beyond ours for God knows what reason, perhaps thinking of ways to preserve themselves through our downfall.

And then there is us. Capsuleers, living minds attached to mundane weapons platforms, which immediately turns them into some kind of predatory beast that feasts on others to stay alive.

There is something terribly wrong here, but somehow I don't think a small-scale, old-fashioned war of conquest is it. His Majesty Merimeth Sarum's seemingly intended plan is not even a symptom of what is actually wrong in this cluster. If anything it is one of the last vestiges of a time when things were still healthy; a time when a war like this was actually important. Perhaps this is a death rattle of those times.

No, this announcement is not a terrible thing. But I fear it is distracting from what actually is a terrible thing: the death of natural humanity in the fires of a transhuman revolution.

Perhaps completing the Reclaiming is the only way to stop it at this point. It is doubtful even that could stop it, but maybe it's worth a shot? Perhaps that is what milord Sarum is thinking. Probably not though.

Seriously? This is your argument? "There are worse things that could happen, so you shouldn't complain about the possibility of getting dragged from your home illegally and forced into servitude to a foreign empire!" That's seriously your argument?

****ing seriously?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#184 - 2013-05-05 07:19:24 UTC
Simply thinking aloud, Mr. Ixiris. The fact that you are still worrying about it is proof of everyone's short-sightedness.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#185 - 2013-05-05 07:39:50 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
You could have forgiven, you could have forgotten"


Forgiven? Perhaps. Forgotten? Never, and there are two reasons for this. 1) It would dishonor all who suffered at your hands were we to forget what you've done. 2) Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

And if you seriously think forgiveness is an option while you still hold so many of our people hostage, you're more delusional than I thought.


Quote:
The choice, thus, is to be loyal to the Empire or not. And my decision on the matter was taken long ago, when I first risked my life for it without a pod. Now I just have to play with the cards in my hand.


Another saying for you, "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2013-05-05 07:44:45 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Simply thinking aloud, Mr. Ixiris. The fact that you are still worrying about it is proof of everyone's short-sightedness.

I could be eaten by a gigantic sandworm whose intestinal fluids are full of nutrient-rich stem cells, and digested agonizingly over the course of a thousand years. That's a far worse fate than getting my pod blown up during a gatecamp, but it doesn't mean I don't worry more about that happening than the sandworm-stem-cell-eternal-digestion thing when I jump through a gate in lowsec.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#187 - 2013-05-05 07:50:46 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Wow... I see that the Republic's brainwashing program has certainly improved a lot since back when I escaped their clutches. I wonder if Sansha's technology has become involved in some way? It wouldn't surprise me.



How old are you, dear? You'd best be at least twice my age if you're going to throw around accusations like that.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2013-05-05 07:52:46 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
How old are you, dear? You'd best be at least twice my age if you're going to throw around accusations like that.

It's really best to ignore literally everything Katran Luftschreck says. She's an utterly duplicitous shill and mouthpiece for the absolute nadir in Amarrian anti-Minmatar propaganda.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Adreena Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe
#189 - 2013-05-05 08:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Adreena Madeveda
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
You all bicker like this is the worst thing in the universe that could happen to anyone. There are nightmares a thousand times worse than being taken in an Amarrian slave raid. They are so bad that in retrospect you might actually have preferred uniting under an Amarrian banner than face what lies out there alone.


Let's try this.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
The criminal empires want nothing more than to exploit everyone as thoroughly as possible, relying on the basest of human instincts to survive.


Slavery is illegal outside the Empire borders, making it, well, criminal, it doesn't seem to make the Amarr stop caressing the thought of a good ol' reclaiming. Exploitation, slavery, yeah, seems to fit.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
The Sabik throw away their humanity and compassion in favor of mind-obliterating excess, making revelry in the pain of others.


Compared to the Empire whose humanity and compassion forces it to shove its self-proclaimed superiority down everyone else's throat.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
The Sansha scrape at our doors with their metal limbs and minds made of silicon synapses, seeking to make us 'perfect' through an unnatural oneness.


While the Empire consider vitoxin a fine tool to shape reluctant slaves toward "spiritual perfection" and cultural oneness.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
The Sleepers lurk in a world beyond ours for God knows what reason, perhaps thinking of ways to preserve themselves through our downfall.


Your God lurks beyond our world too, looks like an overpowered weirdo whose reasons, if there are any, are quite obscure -yet you seem to consider him a guy so nice you'd like to spend the whole eternity with him.

...................\o\ /o/...................
Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2013-05-05 11:37:30 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
There is nothing wrong with wanting a moral system for everyone that prevents social decay.

There is something wrong in believing you have the right to force your idea of one on other people.


If I show my disagreement with an army and fleet being raised then I'm not for using force.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#191 - 2013-05-05 11:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
You all bicker like this is the worst thing in the universe that could happen to anyone. There are nightmares a thousand times worse than being taken in an Amarrian slave raid. They are so bad that in retrospect you might actually have preferred uniting under an Amarrian banner than face what lies out there alone.

The criminal empires want nothing more than to exploit everyone as thoroughly as possible, relying on the basest of human instincts to survive.

The Sabik throw away their humanity and compassion in favor of mind-obliterating excess, making revelry in the pain of others.

The Sansha scrape at our doors with their metal limbs and minds made of silicon synapses, seeking to make us 'perfect' through an unnatural oneness.

The Sleepers lurk in a world beyond ours for God knows what reason, perhaps thinking of ways to preserve themselves through our downfall.

And then there is us. Capsuleers, living minds attached to mundane weapons platforms, which immediately turns them into some kind of predatory beast that feasts on others to stay alive.

There is something terribly wrong here, but somehow I don't think a small-scale, old-fashioned war of conquest is it. His Majesty Merimeth Sarum's seemingly intended plan is not even a symptom of what is actually wrong in this cluster. If anything it is one of the last vestiges of a time when things were still healthy; a time when a war like this was actually important. Perhaps this is a death rattle of those times.

No, this announcement is not a terrible thing. But I fear it is distracting from what actually is a terrible thing: the death of natural humanity in the fires of a transhuman revolution.

Perhaps completing the Reclaiming is the only way to stop it at this point. It is doubtful even that could stop it, but maybe it's worth a shot? Perhaps that is what milord Sarum is thinking. Probably not though.


Vitoxin infection and breeding colonies, or even having your mind outright stolen by Sansha-esque methods of cerebral control, are pretty much "it" for bad, Aldrith. All of which are quite legal in the Empire, along with murder, ****, assault, kidnapping, and torture of one's slaves.

Pretty sure you guys are trying that whole "We're not the worst thing imaginable" angle now that the victim blaming has failed.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2013-05-05 13:32:03 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Yes Sepherim, you're right. We, like the Jove, are guilty of allowing our space to be invaded by your ancestors. We were wrong not to have more advanced weapons of mass destruction so that we could have utterly destroyed your expeditionary forces. We were incorrect in being rounded up by the millions and transported back to your worlds to be enslaved. It was a mistake to have fought against your occupation for over 700 years so that when the time was right we could finally rise up and throw you out of our space.


Thank you for understanding. Now, can we move on to the re-enslavement of your people? We've already lost more than enough time in the factories!

Quote:
Do you truly not understand how wrong it is to blame the us, the victims, for the crimes of your people?


You should read all I say before writing, captain Rella, as you'll find somewhere in my words that I already admitted that we carry a heavy burden of misdeeds. So I am used to accepting guilt for the misdeeds that happened during your enslavement and during your time as slaves. That said, it was for your best, even if it is a dangerous and painful road to walk, it made you better, even if you didn't complete the process as you should have.

Quote:
I don't claim that we have never done wrong. What I do claim is that what things we've done, and that you find so repugnant, are the result of your ancestors' original deeds. We've merely done what was necessary in order to survive or, to insure the survival of our distant kin.


I already agreed with this before, but I can do so again if you like.

Quote:
I'm now done attempting to explain or justify anything to the likes of you imperials. I'll not be judged by your bankrupt morality. I'll not try to understand your sham religion or, your corrupt culture. You can't be reasoned with or accommodated. So long as your people hold to the notion that you are superior and divinely ordained to rule over all of humanity, you pose a grave danger to us all. You are more dangerous than Nation, the heretical terrorist groups you've spawned and all the criminal enterprises. You must be stopped by any means necessary.


See, this is the point of breaking. We can accomodate, we can try to understand you, we can admit our own part of fault. Maybe we won't admit "all that you consider a fault", but then again I won't apologize for what I think is correct. And yet, even if we go as far as that, we still get nothing from you, because you're so enclosed in your positions you won't see your own faults and mistakes. Just as Commander Blake said, several pages before. You may call us zealots, and possessing "bankrupt moralities", but you do so as much as we do and are more fanatic in your own opinions.

Quote:
I used to feel that in order for us (meaning Minmatar, Federals and Caldari) to "win" didn't require you to "lose". I used to feel that given enough time, communication and contact that we could reach an understanding and live together peacefully. Based on what I've witnessed of late, however, I no longer feel this is possible. Your empire, as it currently exists, cannot continue to stand.

The time for talk has passed. I therefore say, "Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war".


You can come meet me in the Bleak Lands any time you want, I'm usually there. Fighting the dogs of war your people freed on the cluster.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2013-05-05 13:35:56 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
If I show my disagreement with an army and fleet being raised then I'm not for using force.

Disagreeing with a genocide a Royal House in your Empire is planning is a nice thought, but if you do nothing else to stop it, that's all it is.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2013-05-05 13:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
Katarina Musana wrote:
You should pick up a dictionary sometime. That is one definition of war. That is not the only defintion of war.
War is also defined as "a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism" and "a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end."


Might be in your dictionary, not the one I just checked ((Oxford Online) which lists war as a conflict between nations or countries, the other options being "catch phrases" like "being at war with her parents". And I can go to my sociology and politology dictionaries from the university and translate you a couple aceptions that go in the same line.

So no, you're still wrong.

Quote:
We don't fear you. We value our freedom more than we value our lives.
You also need to work on your literacy. I was refering to those Matari who already live in the Federation, the ones who will be left to avenge the rest of us if you manage to succeed in an assault upon the Republic.


Seems like both of us need to work in our literacy, then: when I mentioned terror and fear, it was in the context of having your planets taken, and under the threat of orbital bombardment to oblivion. And I seriously doubt you are superhuman inmune to fear, it's not my experience at least, maybe with the except of a few of you zealots. I'm sure the Gallente in Caldari Prime also thought they valued their way of life and freedom more than fear, and a titan did marvels to prove them wrong.

And, seriously, do you think the roughly third of the Minmatarr population that lives in the Federation would be able to do anything the other two-thirds and the entire Republic Navy wouldn't have been able to? You should be a science-fiction writer indeed!

Quote:
Oh, we remember. You can be damned sure of that.


Oh, yes, that's right, I forgot you were more than 700 years old. My bad.

You don't remember, captain Musana, you've just been told.

Quote:
So long as our cousins know slavery, we know slavery. Unlike you Amarr, we do not lack empathy.


Alright, generic zealot catch phrase, I see you memorized your pamphlets, good for you! Soon you'll be a True Slave for the Republic!

Quote:
You sound like an alcoholic or drug addict. "We can quit whenever we want. We, uh...just don't want to yet!"


Nah, my only drug is to beat my Mimatarr slaves each time a member of their race says the empty catch words thinking they're cool. Going to have to do it now, and for quite a while actually.

Oh, and before you jump on me because you don't understand the sarcasm, I don't own slaves.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2013-05-05 13:47:07 UTC
Katrina Musana wrote:
You speak as if there's something "wrong" or "evil" about liberating our own people from those who sought, and still seek, to destroy us.


Oh, no, my apologies, my bad. I didn't want to imply that invading another sovereign nation and killing thousands is wrong in any way, not if it's for the slaves! You know, taking them is always fine, even if you have to kill many more, leave others behind, and all that...

Don't say it's wrong next time we declare a Reclaiming and enslave your people again, though, you just argued it was fine...

Quote:
Forgiven? Perhaps. Forgotten? Never, and there are two reasons for this. 1) It would dishonor all who suffered at your hands were we to forget what you've done. 2) Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

And if you seriously think forgiveness is an option while you still hold so many of our people hostage, you're more delusional than I thought.


But the choice was there, you could have done so. You did not, you chose war and death of thousands, maybe millions. And that is on you, not on us. You chose the path of war, death and all it implies, instead of looking for other ways to solve the conflict.

Quote:
Another saying for you, "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."


I know, that's why I joined the Imperial Navy to stop you evil Minmatarr for triumphing.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#196 - 2013-05-05 13:59:21 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
You all bicker like this is the worst thing in the universe that could happen to anyone. There are nightmares a thousand times worse than being taken in an Amarrian slave raid. They are so bad that in retrospect you might actually have preferred uniting under an Amarrian banner than face what lies out there alone.



You know, I read through your post, considered each of your points, then thought about it for a bit, and to be completely honest, no, there are not any tangible threats out there that I see as worse than the threat of you on our doorstep. Even the Sansha, whom I've spent the past 7 or 8 months fighting.

If it came down to it, I'd rather be part of Sansha's Nation than a slave to the Amarr. The Sansha are more humane.

Whatever else may be "out there" and "on its way," we intend to face it as free Matari, not as Amarrian slaves. Once that is fully accomplished, we might deem it necessary to fly alongside the Amarr in defense of humanity, but we will never fly under the authority of the Amarr.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#197 - 2013-05-05 14:10:18 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
That said, it was for your best, even if it is a dangerous and painful road to walk, it made you better, even if you didn't complete the process as you should have.


You think we're better now than we were before we ever met your Empire? We were far more technologically advanced than we are now. We were a peaceful nation, long since grown unfamiliar with the concepts of large-scale warfare. You come in and destroy all of that and then claim we're better off now? How many pages now have been in this thead discussing how your people dragged us down to your level, turned us into "monsters," and you say that makes us better than we were before?
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2013-05-05 14:23:05 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
You think we're better now than we were before we ever met your Empire? We were far more technologically advanced than we are now. We were a peaceful nation, long since grown unfamiliar with the concepts of large-scale warfare. You come in and destroy all of that and then claim we're better off now? How many pages now have been in this thead discussing how your people dragged us down to your level, turned us into "monsters," and you say that makes us better than we were before?


See, that's the thing... why do those things make you worse? A lot of you became a part of the Empire, that is making you better. A lot of you were taught the propper ways and advanced on the propper paths. That made you better. You were given our technology, which was better than yours, and houses among the stars beyond the three original planet you colonized. The only problem is that some of you stopped half-way, or else you wouldn't have needed war, nor violence, nor large-scale warfare unless you had become a part of the Imperial Navy.

So, unfortunately, dragging you to our level is not dragging you down, but up, far from being monstruous.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#199 - 2013-05-05 14:27:31 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
when I mentioned terror and fear, it was in the context of having your planets taken, and under the threat of orbital bombardment to oblivion. And I seriously doubt you are superhuman inmune to fear, it's not my experience at least, maybe with the except of a few of you zealots. I'm sure the Gallente in Caldari Prime also thought they valued their way of life and freedom more than fear, and a titan did marvels to prove them wrong.


The Gallente on Caldari Prime don't have the conviction we have after spending centuries enslaved by your Empire. Knowing first hand their are fates worse than death does wonders for counteracting the fear of death.

Quote:
And, seriously, do you think the roughly third of the Minmatarr population that lives in the Federation would be able to do anything the other two-thirds and the entire Republic Navy wouldn't have been able to? You should be a science-fiction writer indeed!


Only a quarter of our people are Republic citizens. And it would be more than just those in the Federation who would seek vengeance on you for wiping out a full quarter of the Matari population.

Quote:
Oh, yes, that's right, I forgot you were more than 700 years old. My bad.

You don't remember, captain Musana, you've just been told.


You really don't understand the impact your Empire has had upon us, do you?

Quote:
Don't say it's wrong next time we declare a Reclaiming and enslave your people again, though, you just argued it was fine...


You only make yourself look like a fool by pretending there's no difference between an invasion to enslave a populace and a counterstrike to free those who were enslaved by such an invasion.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#200 - 2013-05-05 14:31:41 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
You chose the path of war, death and all it implies, instead of looking for other ways to solve the conflict.


You put us on this path when your Empire chose the path of war, death, and all it implies. Could we choose to leave this path? Perhaps, but why should we? You put us on this path. You tried so hard to resculpt us in your image. It's only just you experience the results of your actions.

Besides, the ball is in your court now. We told you what it will take to turn us aside from this path of war you set us upon. It's up to the Empire to choose now.