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Experienced Players duel baiting in starter mission system

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#61 - 2013-05-06 18:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Ilkahn wrote:
By not patrolling the new systems and helping new accounts it's akin to McDonalds employees walking away from the counter while you are standing there waiting to place your order. At some point you just give up and go elsewhere.

Except EVE, as a product is a sandbox game, one the major selling points of which is that it is a dark, cutthroat universe and the vast majority of the media about the game focuses on players unscrupulously lying to or exploiting each other for entertainment or personal gain.

Enforcing strict rules in EVE for any reason is like being told that you can't eat a certain part of the burger you just bought in McDonalds. You still get the whole burger when you buy it, it still costs full price, but if you eat that part you're never allowed back in again.

As customers paying money for a sanbox experience based on interaction with other players we shouldn't want CCP staff telling anyone playing the game what they can and can't do, that's contrary to the entire premise of the game. Whatever needs to be done to make it so that there's not a single thing you can do with a spaceship that you're not allowed to do should be done.

To me that means making the mechanics in the game clear and the documentation and tutorials relevant to what players are actually likely to experience and how hostile interaction with other players can occur, rather than just directing newbies to mindlessly grind PVE forever. Hell there's should be a dueling tutorial that directs newbies to go and duel each other in their rookie ships. Couple that with removing all non-rookie related content from all rookie systems and the game will be in a better place.

At that point rookie system rules should be scaled back if not removed entirely. It'd serve to reduce GM workload, improve the game for new players and make the game a more contiguous sandbox experience for everyone.

This "MOAR RULES PROTECT ROOKIES HARDER FROM MEEN PVPARS!!!" crap is the antithesis of what makes this game great.
Ylariana
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-05-06 20:10:09 UTC
I like the Buying a Burger analogy, but to me what you suggest comes out like this ....

Go in to McDs for the first time ever, buy a burger and fries, some other customer comes over and spits in your burger. McDs staff member says, "This is what you leave yourself open to when you choose to buy a meal here. We hope you enjoyed your experience today, Do Come Again ....."

I get that its a sandbox game, but, honestly, is staying the heck out of the paddling pool so that new folks at least have a day or even a just couple of hours to find their feet before jumping into the feeding frenzy that you so crave such a hard thing to be expected to do ?
Is padding your Killboard with Ibis' and Velators of THAT much importance to you ?

If you cant stop yourself pissing in the pool, eventually CCP might do something stupidly drastic like Auto-Off-lining the offensive systems on any ship piloted by a character that is more than a week old in those systems.


Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#63 - 2013-05-06 22:41:23 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:


Hell there's should be a dueling tutorial that directs newbies to go and duel each other in their rookie ships. Couple that with removing all non-rookie related content from all rookie systems and the game will be in a better place.




I'd rather see players being that tutorial rather than more walls of text to read about something you won't understand without just doing it. Better policing and help in these systems with ISDs or something actually there would be a good thing.

J'smokin'pole is just old and like we know oldheads don't learn new things too good. A wartarget fleet retreats to a rookie system and starts activating killrights so you can't follow them without risking a ban for killing noobs that get involved?...no that's not right and not the case. Pursue them, kill any "noobs" that get in the way and petition the fruits that tried to game the system by retreating there which caused the death of a few clueless noobs. If you listen to the goofs telling you to spam petitions at GMs to get the person who blew you up banned it may backfire on ya in some situations.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#64 - 2013-05-06 22:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Right, but McDonalds does not advertise that they allow you to spit other customers burgers as one of the reasons why you you should buy food there.

There's a broader issue with the new player experience than newbies getting shot at. Newbies get shot at all the time and in 99% of cases nobody cares. The problem is that the part of the that new players interact with is so inadequate at showing them basic things about not getting instantly blown up that GMs, who are customer service staff who are meant to be correcting issues with the game for people and answering questions have to police people from doing things at rookies that to anyone else in the game would be totally normal.

GMs should not be doing that, at all. The rookie system rules are plugging an inadequacy in the game design and you should not be okay with there being a bloody great disruption in the sandbox nature of them game being plugged in a way that wastes the time of the people who're meant to be providing you with timely and effective customer service.
Zahl Theis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-05-06 23:37:33 UTC
I've read about many harsh stories in this game.

I don't care what game you're playing. Trying to inhibit the gameplay of people who will later populate your favorite game is just madness..

Let's work [u]together[/u]
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-05-07 05:30:52 UTC
Defaulting the "Ignore Duel Requests" option to ON would solve this problem pretty easily.

I know I'm not the only one to have figured out this solution, really.. I'm not that smart.

Why hasn't this been done already instead of wasting resources policing rookie systems?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#67 - 2013-05-07 06:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Vilnius Zar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I for one, am confused as to how politely asking "Excuse, me good sir, would you terribly mind allowing me to shoot at you" aka a Duel constitutes a "trick."

Second, is the rule "you can't tricknewbies into being able to shoot them" or is it "you can't PvP in the rookie systems?"

Because one of those is a well designed rule for protecting newbies (the kind of rule I suggested repeatedly in another thread like this one), and one requires a definition of both "newbies" and "trick" to be effective at preventing bad behavior.


Stop being ****, it's unbecoming.


Spamming duel invites in newbie systems at anyone who undocks, where newbies have no real clue about the UI as a whole and are struggling with their first ship/mission is terrible and only ******* morons would do that. I'm sure you don't have trouble figuring that out.


Did you actually read the post you're replying to? I'm suggesting that "No PvP at all in Rookie Systems" is the better rule, and the rule that should be promulgated because then there can be no excuses. Why are you so insistent that it be otherwise?

And again, how is politely asking someone "hey, can I shoot you" a trick?

Here's the problem with trying to limit the newbie system protection to only "newbies" who have been "tricked." Given that, per the rules available today, it is legal to duel non-newbies in newbie systems, isn't sitting on the undock only shooting those people you don't think are newbies (which, since "newbie" status is undefined and not something players can check, you'll probably get some wrong) legal?

The bad rule (the one on the wiki) is like a speed limit that says "There is a speed limit on this stretch of highway, we will not tell you what it is, but it's definitely above 25 mph." Sure, you can avoid getting a ticket by going 25mph, but if the real speed limit is 75mph, the badly written rule is going to cause crashes as some people will be going 25 and some 75 (if they've figured out the real limit), if it's actually 26mph it's going to cause a lot of people who aren't intending to break the rules to get tickets.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-05-07 07:21:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
And again, how is politely asking someone "hey, can I shoot you" a trick?

A) because those newbies might come from another game where a duel stops when you reach 1 hitpoint - and not with the irreversible destruction of your ship and your clone - and maybe even the destruction of a second ship if you happen to undock right away while the timer is still up.
B) because some players might not read the message and just click randomly on one of the buttons to make it disappear.
C) because even if the newbie understands the rules of the duel, he might think that the duel is fair and not understand that he's completely and utterly outmatched by the veteran with his faction frigate and T2 guns

So yeah, that rule should be clarified.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#69 - 2013-05-07 07:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Thomas Builder wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
And again, how is politely asking someone "hey, can I shoot you" a trick?

A) because those newbies might come from another game where a duel stops when you reach 1 hitpoint - and not with the irreversible destruction of your ship and your clone - and maybe even the destruction of a second ship if you happen to undock right away while the timer is still up.
B) because some players might not read the message and just click randomly on one of the buttons to make it disappear.
C) because even if the newbie understands the rules of the duel, he might think that the duel is fair and not understand that he's completely and utterly outmatched by the veteran with his faction frigate and T2 guns

So yeah, that rule should be clarified.


A) Not a Trick, as the newbie understood that he could be shot.
B) "I didn't read the box" is Not a Trick. Every EULA in the world relies on that fact to be a valid, binding contract.
C) Not a Trick, as the newbie understood that he could be shot.

The banned action is "tricking" them into a situation where you can shoot them freely. Win or Lose is irrelevant.

Asking politely in a manner that informs them what can happen is really not a trick.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#70 - 2013-05-07 08:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
The rule isn't bad, it's a simple "don't do dumb **** in newbie/starter systems with the intent to hit newbies. If you do it anyway a GM will come and they will NOT buy into your ******** logic". Note that "dumb **** with the intent to hit newbies" is NOT the same as having some wardec where the target flees to Uitra, but if you'd spam invite newbies in said starter systems into an alt corp which you're at war with then guess what; you're doing dumb ****.


Anyone who needs to have said "dumb ****" explained to them in specific scenarios and actions probably lacks the IQ to play this game, for all the others isn't not that difficult to comprehend. All you're doing is trolling and trying your hardest find loopholes, which there aren't... on purpose.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-05-07 08:27:27 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The rule isn't bad, it's a simple "don't do dumb **** in newbie/starter systems with the intent to hit newbies. If you do it anyway a GM will come and they will NOT buy into your ******** logic". Note that "dumb **** with the intent to hit newbies" is NOT the same as having some wardec where the target flees to Uitra, but if you'd spam invite newbies in said starter systems into an alt corp which you're at war with then guess what; you're doing dumb ****.


Anyone who needs to have said "dumb ****" explained to them in specific scenarios and actions probably lacks the IQ to play this game, for all the others isn't not that difficult to comprehend. All you're doing is trolling and trying your hardest find loopholes, which there aren't... on purpose.


CCP put the profanity server on reinforced mode...

Vil. Totally agree with your point.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#72 - 2013-05-07 09:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The rule isn't bad, it's a simple "don't do dumb **** in newbie/starter systems with the intent to hit newbies. If you do it anyway a GM will come and they will NOT buy into your ******** logic". Note that "dumb **** with the intent to hit newbies" is NOT the same as having some wardec where the target flees to Uitra, but if you'd spam invite newbies in said starter systems into an alt corp which you're at war with then guess what; you're doing dumb ****.


Anyone who needs to have said "dumb ****" explained to them in specific scenarios and actions probably lacks the IQ to play this game, for all the others isn't not that difficult to comprehend. All you're doing is trolling and trying your hardest find loopholes, which there aren't... on purpose.


If the WT flees to a newbie system under my proposal, just pretend they docked up in the worlds worst kickout station. (I also think newbie systems should not have belts, instead having the Tutorial/Career missions provide deadspaces for the newbies doing them to mine in.)

Define "newbie." If you're going to insist on a rule that says "you can shoot not-newbies in newbie systems, but can't shoot newbies" you have to define "newbie" so that players who are shooting not-newbies in newbie systems can avoid shooting newbies.


Also, what happens if your WT corp (run by people you have no connection with other than the war you declared on them) starts recruiting newbies without your knowledge as you chase them into Uitra? Now you're among a swarm of maybe-newbies, and your WT have rendered you virtually indistinguishable for your example of someone doing "dumb ****."

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-05-07 09:44:54 UTC
Still the easiest solution...

Constant CCP GM / ISD STAR presence in system.
They can do tye other stuff they do while in system but they can just randomly warp around and check the system for illegal activity.

Hell with their DevHax powers they can just move from system to system every couple minutes.

But end result: More active monitoring of the system will prevent it, and as you are in local you can also interact more with new players (having a GM with you in local chat gives a whole different idea of having one in help chat - because they are among the players by being in local gives people more the idea of them being involved with their players.


Last weekend with the EVEis10 fleets and events, Rens local chat changed a lot after CCP Foxfour teleported in to greet RvB Ganked fleet, for once the local in a trade hub was plecent to read.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#74 - 2013-05-07 15:15:06 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Asking politely in a manner that informs them what can happen is really not a trick.



That's my thoughts on dueling too. Not all newbs are afraid to loose or slow learners and quite frankly some are pretty smart cookies coming from other pvp games that blow. Anyone willing to spend time in these places interacting with potential customers using the advertised features as intended is a selling point. Anyone includes ISDs.

If we were talking about grabbing newbs out of there to salvage your missions for a tiny cut and exploiting the crap out of them because you're a greedy goober noone would have a problem...that's ok right? because they moved 2 systems over to join a zombie corp full of tax monkeys who will teach them the art of crying to GMs to correct their mistakes. If that's ok I think I'll start an "indy" corp for newbs with ventures and pay them "competitive" prices for their ore since they can't use a hauler yet and not used to the travel involved with this game and have no idea there are market hubs or...since I think I just described every "indy" corp in high sec I don't see how duels would chase anyone away. Why because if they're being ripped off but not loosing a ship that's acceptable "cold,harsh" to introduce them to?

As far as blindly clicking things?...that should be tutorial lesson #1. Oh noes GMs, I accidentally trashed all my free tutorial ships I didn't know what trash meant on those confusing menus...please...
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-05-07 18:41:33 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Asking politely in a manner that informs them what can happen is really not a trick.



That's my thoughts on dueling too. Not all newbs are afraid to loose or slow learners and quite frankly some are pretty smart cookies coming from other pvp games that blow. Anyone willing to spend time in these places interacting with potential customers using the advertised features as intended is a selling point. Anyone includes ISDs.

If we were talking about grabbing newbs out of there to salvage your missions for a tiny cut and exploiting the crap out of them because you're a greedy goober noone would have a problem...that's ok right? because they moved 2 systems over to join a zombie corp full of tax monkeys who will teach them the art of crying to GMs to correct their mistakes. If that's ok I think I'll start an "indy" corp for newbs with ventures and pay them "competitive" prices for their ore since they can't use a hauler yet and not used to the travel involved with this game and have no idea there are market hubs or...since I think I just described every "indy" corp in high sec I don't see how duels would chase anyone away. Why because if they're being ripped off but not loosing a ship that's acceptable "cold,harsh" to introduce them to?

As far as blindly clicking things?...that should be tutorial lesson #1. Oh noes GMs, I accidentally trashed all my free tutorial ships I didn't know what trash meant on those confusing menus...please...


Funny thing is...your views on how it should work are completely different:

Ruby's way: Ask in local who wants to fight. People that want to fight get a dual request.

MC"xxxx"'s way: I'm leet PvP player. I find it okay to just dual request random guys and if they click accept it's their own fault for accepting it and sitting there as suspect waiting for a clueless newb to shoot me is totally fine.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#76 - 2013-05-07 21:18:40 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
I don't think this is (or should be) against the rules.


Any sort of activity that deliberately targets new players in the rookie systems is actively discouraged and against the rules. The moment they are out of those systems you are good to scam, kill and generally treat them like the rest of Eve's players. What is so bad about that?

It's all to do with new player retention, as that is one of the things that Eve has major issues with.


I agree with the first part of your post but I do not agree with your last sentence.

Player retention is fine, if it weren't be wouldn't have growing subs, even after 10 years. People who play and decide it's not for them is also fine, there's nothing wrong with people going "eewww, nope", you don't have to please anyone. In fact you don't WANT to please everyone.

So yes, newbies in starter and career systems are off limits and tbh it's beyond sad for people to go for them. Before the crimewatch and ship changes I would make 2 alts, put them in ospreys in career systems, mining in a belt hoping to catch a can flipper. One osprey tanked with massive tackle and neuts, the other for for RR. You catch some funny stuff that way, AFs Dramiels and whatnot.


I saw a guy with 20 accounts undock the other day in Jita. He also controlled all the boats at the same time with some **** botting program -.-. That's where your rising subscription numbers come from. Eve does lack new players. A healthy game population looks like a X-mas tree, ours is more of an atomic bomb graph. I hope Dust will bring in a ton of new blood.

Even Brave newbies inc is made up from alts of old players reliving their youth, I think it's quite sad sometimes.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2013-05-07 21:24:07 UTC
PWN dem noobs!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-05-07 21:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Radius Prime wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
I don't think this is (or should be) against the rules.


Any sort of activity that deliberately targets new players in the rookie systems is actively discouraged and against the rules. The moment they are out of those systems you are good to scam, kill and generally treat them like the rest of Eve's players. What is so bad about that?

It's all to do with new player retention, as that is one of the things that Eve has major issues with.


I agree with the first part of your post but I do not agree with your last sentence.

Player retention is fine, if it weren't be wouldn't have growing subs, even after 10 years. People who play and decide it's not for them is also fine, there's nothing wrong with people going "eewww, nope", you don't have to please anyone. In fact you don't WANT to please everyone.

So yes, newbies in starter and career systems are off limits and tbh it's beyond sad for people to go for them. Before the crimewatch and ship changes I would make 2 alts, put them in ospreys in career systems, mining in a belt hoping to catch a can flipper. One osprey tanked with massive tackle and neuts, the other for for RR. You catch some funny stuff that way, AFs Dramiels and whatnot.


I saw a guy with 20 accounts undock the other day in Jita. He also controlled all the boats at the same time with some **** botting program -.-. That's where your rising subscription numbers come from. Eve does lack new players. A healthy game population looks like a X-mas tree, ours is more of an atomic bomb graph. I hope Dust will bring in a ton of new blood.

Even Brave newbies inc is made up from alts of old players reliving their youth, I think it's quite sad sometimes.


Uhm

ISBoxers is NOT botting...Your big FAIL no 1.

My daily sessions with new players say that there are still plenty coming into the game (or some alts that are REALLY good at hiding their knowledge)...Your second back fail.

But, hey, I'm talking to someone who can't play with others and have to sit in it's own 1 man corp...so *shrug* keep your weird ideas in your corp chat...we know that EVE has many alts...but there are still people joining this beautiful game.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#79 - 2013-05-08 01:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
J'Poll wrote:


MC"xxxx"'s way: I'm leet PvP player. I find it okay to just dual request random guys and if they click accept it's their own fault for accepting it and sitting there as suspect waiting for a clueless newb to shoot me is totally fine.


This thread has reformed me and I've corrected my terrible behavior. I'm now the proud owner of a newbie friendly industry based high sec corp two jumps away from the starter system. Just one day in and our lovely NPE has supplied me with 14 clueless venture miners all "donating" ore to the corp goal of a high sec pos (that will never be built but hey I have to give them a reason to go grind missions for standings once the mining drills bore them to death to keep tax money rollin in).

Thanks for the idea guys. 07
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#80 - 2013-05-08 08:06:23 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:


MC"xxxx"'s way: I'm leet PvP player. I find it okay to just dual request random guys and if they click accept it's their own fault for accepting it and sitting there as suspect waiting for a clueless newb to shoot me is totally fine.


This thread has reformed me and I've corrected my terrible behavior. I'm now the proud owner of a newbie friendly industry based high sec corp two jumps away from the starter system. Just one day in and our lovely NPE has supplied me with 14 clueless venture miners all "donating" ore to the corp goal of a high sec pos (that will never be built but hey I have to give them a reason to go grind missions for standings once the mining drills bore them to death to keep tax money rollin in).

Thanks for the idea guys. 07


Yup that's fine because it happens outside the newbie systems, besides that "amazing idea" is what drives 80% of the corps in EVE, many are scams and almost all are ****. Enjoy.