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An analysis of nullsec mining changes in Odyssey

First post
Author
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#121 - 2013-05-03 07:17:49 UTC
Hum Noto wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:
"Wormhole systems" are just normal solar systems which we only connect to via wormholes, and the idea of a solar system without any moons seems very strange to me. If this was going to be done, I'd want some kind of artificial explanation of why there are no moons, or at least why we can't use them.


The sleepers consumed them (and the planets) with giant mining machines in order to build their endless fleets.



To build their endless fleets, or maybe to build themselves a Ringworld or 20.


Why 20 of those when you could have one of these? Dyson Sphere
ZAKURELL0 LINDA
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2013-05-03 16:52:30 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Guess I'm lucky I shopped a 2 years supply of fuel blocks at this years low for my large tower. I'll mine some ice leisurely now and then to prolong this period and watch the show.

2 years for CCP to sort out the mess Lol.

they should let the ice MELTS lol
may be the fridge suddenly malfunctioned? Roll

RIP Iron Lady

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-05-03 17:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Quote:
at least another 100m or so sitting idle in hangers.


you are not even close, the stockpiles are gigantic
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#124 - 2013-05-03 18:59:18 UTC
Callduron wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:

The new ice changes have the effect of turning a relaxing night of mining into frustrating repeated 4hr downtimes - which means players will log out and go play other games.


Why wouldn't anyone mining simply switch to another barge and mine ore until the next ice belt spawns?


Because I keep my mining barge in another solar system where I do my industry and sales.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#125 - 2013-05-03 19:02:30 UTC
Travasty Space wrote:
Hum Noto wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:
"Wormhole systems" are just normal solar systems which we only connect to via wormholes, and the idea of a solar system without any moons seems very strange to me. If this was going to be done, I'd want some kind of artificial explanation of why there are no moons, or at least why we can't use them.


The sleepers consumed them (and the planets) with giant mining machines in order to build their endless fleets.



To build their endless fleets, or maybe to build themselves a Ringworld or 20.


Why 20 of those when you could have one of these? Dyson Sphere

In one Star Trek episode they found a Dyson sphere that had been abandoned because it was built around a star that went unstable. On seeing that my first thought was "The selected a star that went unstable? I sure would not want to see that law suit".

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Frozen fanfiction

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#126 - 2013-05-03 19:10:57 UTC
Klingon Admiral wrote:
Let's take a quick look at Caldari Ice after Odyssey hits.

Currently, Caldari highsec should contain 34 Systems with ice fields, with 40 ice fields in total. If the existing icefields are converted to the new ice anomalies, and we assume that these ice fields are cleared 4 times a day, Caldari highsec could produce 400,000 units of Caldari racial ice each day. This equals:

Racial Isotopes: 120,000,000
Heavy Water: 20,000,000
Liquid Ozone: 10,000,000

To produce 40 Caldari fuel blocks (4 small pos hours), one does need:

Racial Isotopes: 400
Heavy Water: 150
Liquid Ozone: 150

As one can easily see, the ratios between the produced ice products and the demand created by POS are quite off. How the market will react will probably depend on the demand of this particular fuel block. But for now I will work with a high estimate (both HW and LO are imported from elsewhere), a medium estimate (only LO is imported) and a low estimate (nothing is imported)

On high estimate, the Caldari highsec can produce 12,000,000 fuel blocks per day, equalling 500,000 days of small POS operation, while being required to import 25,000,000 units of Heavy Water (125% of daily production) and 35,000,000 units of Liquid Ozone (250% of daily production).

On medium estimate, Caldari highsec will produce 5,333,333 fuel blocks per day, equalling 222,222 days of small POS operation. 66,666,670 units of Racial Isotopes (55.5% of daily production) will be left over, while 10,000,000 units of LO (100% of daily production) would have to be imported from elsewhere.

On low estimate, Caldari highsec will produce 2,666,666 fuel blocks per day, equalling 111,111 days of small POS operation.
93,333,340 units of Racial Isotopes will be left over (77.8% of daily production) and 10,000,000 of Heavy Water (50% of daily production.

I see a LO bottleneck on the horizon.

A small POS uses 10 blocks an hour. All the "days of small POS operation" values need to be dropped by a factor of 10. And if we want to so it for large POSes, another factor of 4. So only sufficient Ozone for 2777 POSes.

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Masumi SinTe
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-05-05 06:46:55 UTC
I'm sorry but i'll ask something that's REALLY bugging me out about this whole thing, and not only ice.


While i'm not trying to start a flamewar, i can't understand a thing. WHY null-sec corps don't recruit 20-30 dedicated miners for them, just for having all the supply they need, be it ice or ore, and pay em' a nice amount of iskies? They don't even need protection sometimes in the Blue donut sea, and it's hell easy to do. Instead of having to deal with logistics and freighters, just grab 20-30 "High-sec" carebears, and bring them to null. Don't make them go to war, don't make them be in comms all the time, just let them mine and sell the minerals to YOU (And ONLY you, no shipping to Jita at ALL) and there you go, your own personal supply.

Oh! And make them mine ice too if needed (It can be the corp tax) for your fuel needs. I've seen a LOT of corps searching for miners but they ask them to pvp too......Hell, i would even move this alt to 0.0 to mine for ANYONE if i didn't have to deal with the CTA's and the drama, i've even set up an industry at totally fair prices, a FULL null-sec industry.


But no, the word "PvP" always appears, the sp requirements always appears (When you can mine with as low as 1.2m sp). Why bother with all the logistics when now you have a real chance of doing it all in your home.

With this change, i expected a flood of "Miners" recruitment from 0.0 alliances, but i saw none, or too little (Just being curious). So what's the problem ? Do you think that a pilot who mines for your corp/alliance only is not worth it? That is just a carebear ?

I'm sorry to make this analogy, but for example, jets must be made for RL war, do you think that the enginner or the people that assemble them are not worth the same as the soldier who pilot them, that they are not important?....


Sometimes i really don't understand 0.0 people in this game.


Note: This ended being a rant...i'm sorry, but it's something that troubles me deeply...why indy pilots are denied a place in 0.0 warfare and relegated to the "Alt" role......

Note II: No....i'm not an indy pilot xD
Danni stark
#128 - 2013-05-05 06:53:14 UTC
Masumi SinTe wrote:
i can't understand a thing. WHY null-sec corps don't recruit 20-30 dedicated miners for them


because it's less man hours to just import everything form high sec, and those man hours can then be spent on more lucrative (and taxable) activities.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#129 - 2013-05-05 08:49:11 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
Masumi SinTe wrote:
i can't understand a thing. WHY null-sec corps don't recruit 20-30 dedicated miners for them


because it's less man hours to just import everything form high sec, and those man hours can then be spent on more lucrative (and taxable) activities.


Alot of big successfull ones do. There are some that are PVPONLYNOBEARING but alot of corps have a industrial subcorp to help them go with mineralbuyback below jita and more.





My question is will we ever see a random racial isotope ice field added into the indsutrial index system along side the small-giant gravsites, say at indy level 4 a random racial icefield spawns in system?
Danni stark
#130 - 2013-05-05 09:18:54 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
My question is will we ever see a random racial isotope ice field added into the indsutrial index system along side the small-giant gravsites, say at indy level 4 a random racial icefield spawns in system?


it's a nice idea, but i hope not. i think it's important to keep trade flowing between high/null and even between regions.
Centurion Dorn
Superluminal Industries
#131 - 2013-05-06 18:37:02 UTC
Masumi SinTe wrote:
I'm sorry but i'll ask something that's REALLY bugging me out about this whole thing, and not only ice.


While i'm not trying to start a flamewar, i can't understand a thing. WHY null-sec corps don't recruit 20-30 dedicated miners for them, just for having all the supply they need, be it ice or ore, and pay em' a nice amount of iskies? They don't even need protection sometimes in the Blue donut sea, and it's hell easy to do. Instead of having to deal with logistics and freighters, just grab 20-30 "High-sec" carebears, and bring them to null. Don't make them go to war, don't make them be in comms all the time, just let them mine and sell the minerals to YOU (And ONLY you, no shipping to Jita at ALL) and there you go, your own personal supply.

Oh! And make them mine ice too if needed (It can be the corp tax) for your fuel needs. I've seen a LOT of corps searching for miners but they ask them to pvp too......Hell, i would even move this alt to 0.0 to mine for ANYONE if i didn't have to deal with the CTA's and the drama, i've even set up an industry at totally fair prices, a FULL null-sec industry.


But no, the word "PvP" always appears, the sp requirements always appears (When you can mine with as low as 1.2m sp). Why bother with all the logistics when now you have a real chance of doing it all in your home.

With this change, i expected a flood of "Miners" recruitment from 0.0 alliances, but i saw none, or too little (Just being curious). So what's the problem ? Do you think that a pilot who mines for your corp/alliance only is not worth it? That is just a carebear ?

I'm sorry to make this analogy, but for example, jets must be made for RL war, do you think that the enginner or the people that assemble them are not worth the same as the soldier who pilot them, that they are not important?....


Sometimes i really don't understand 0.0 people in this game.


Note: This ended being a rant...i'm sorry, but it's something that troubles me deeply...why indy pilots are denied a place in 0.0 warfare and relegated to the "Alt" role......

Note II: No....i'm not an indy pilot xD


I've made this argument before, and it fell on deaf ears. So good luck.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-05-06 20:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Centurion Dorn wrote:
Masumi SinTe wrote:
I'm sorry but i'll ask something that's REALLY bugging me out about this whole thing, and not only ice.


While i'm not trying to start a flamewar, i can't understand a thing. WHY null-sec corps don't recruit 20-30 dedicated miners for them, just for having all the supply they need, be it ice or ore, and pay em' a nice amount of iskies? They don't even need protection sometimes in the Blue donut sea, and it's hell easy to do. Instead of having to deal with logistics and freighters, just grab 20-30 "High-sec" carebears, and bring them to null. Don't make them go to war, don't make them be in comms all the time, just let them mine and sell the minerals to YOU (And ONLY you, no shipping to Jita at ALL) and there you go, your own personal supply.

Oh! And make them mine ice too if needed (It can be the corp tax) for your fuel needs. I've seen a LOT of corps searching for miners but they ask them to pvp too......Hell, i would even move this alt to 0.0 to mine for ANYONE if i didn't have to deal with the CTA's and the drama, i've even set up an industry at totally fair prices, a FULL null-sec industry.


But no, the word "PvP" always appears, the sp requirements always appears (When you can mine with as low as 1.2m sp). Why bother with all the logistics when now you have a real chance of doing it all in your home.

With this change, i expected a flood of "Miners" recruitment from 0.0 alliances, but i saw none, or too little (Just being curious). So what's the problem ? Do you think that a pilot who mines for your corp/alliance only is not worth it? That is just a carebear ?

I'm sorry to make this analogy, but for example, jets must be made for RL war, do you think that the enginner or the people that assemble them are not worth the same as the soldier who pilot them, that they are not important?....


Sometimes i really don't understand 0.0 people in this game.


Note: This ended being a rant...i'm sorry, but it's something that troubles me deeply...why indy pilots are denied a place in 0.0 warfare and relegated to the "Alt" role......

Note II: No....i'm not an indy pilot xD


I've made this argument before, and it fell on deaf ears. So good luck.



To answer both of you.

1.) The vast majority of people in 0.0 don't mine because it's horrible isk/hr compared to other things they could be doing. Why make 2-5x the work for yourself?
2.) Most corps do have a couple dudes who multibox mining setups like that. Then the minerals get shipped off to jita and sold.

"Sometimes i really don't understand 0.0 people in this game."
It's more that you don't understand 0.0 logistics/game mechanics. It also sounds like you dealt with some fantastically ****** corps in the past. CTA? Seriously?

e: Not to mention that there just isn't currently enough low-ends to do any meaningful production in 0.0 without importing tons. This is getting helped along quite a bit with the next big patch.
Centurion Dorn
Superluminal Industries
#133 - 2013-05-06 20:45:46 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
It also sounds like you dealt with some fantastically ****** corps in the past. CTA? Seriously?

This is a sad day. A day in which I might have to take my own life.

I actually agree with a Goon on something.

/wrists
Masumi SinTe
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-05-06 21:46:46 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Centurion Dorn wrote:
Masumi SinTe wrote:
I'm sorry but i'll ask something that's REALLY bugging me out about this whole thing, and not only ice.


While i'm not trying to start a flamewar, i can't understand a thing. WHY null-sec corps don't recruit 20-30 dedicated miners for them, just for having all the supply they need, be it ice or ore, and pay em' a nice amount of iskies? They don't even need protection sometimes in the Blue donut sea, and it's hell easy to do. Instead of having to deal with logistics and freighters, just grab 20-30 "High-sec" carebears, and bring them to null. Don't make them go to war, don't make them be in comms all the time, just let them mine and sell the minerals to YOU (And ONLY you, no shipping to Jita at ALL) and there you go, your own personal supply.

Oh! And make them mine ice too if needed (It can be the corp tax) for your fuel needs. I've seen a LOT of corps searching for miners but they ask them to pvp too......Hell, i would even move this alt to 0.0 to mine for ANYONE if i didn't have to deal with the CTA's and the drama, i've even set up an industry at totally fair prices, a FULL null-sec industry.


But no, the word "PvP" always appears, the sp requirements always appears (When you can mine with as low as 1.2m sp). Why bother with all the logistics when now you have a real chance of doing it all in your home.

With this change, i expected a flood of "Miners" recruitment from 0.0 alliances, but i saw none, or too little (Just being curious). So what's the problem ? Do you think that a pilot who mines for your corp/alliance only is not worth it? That is just a carebear ?

I'm sorry to make this analogy, but for example, jets must be made for RL war, do you think that the enginner or the people that assemble them are not worth the same as the soldier who pilot them, that they are not important?....


Sometimes i really don't understand 0.0 people in this game.


Note: This ended being a rant...i'm sorry, but it's something that troubles me deeply...why indy pilots are denied a place in 0.0 warfare and relegated to the "Alt" role......

Note II: No....i'm not an indy pilot xD


I've made this argument before, and it fell on deaf ears. So good luck.



To answer both of you.

1.) The vast majority of people in 0.0 don't mine because it's horrible isk/hr compared to other things they could be doing. Why make 2-5x the work for yourself?
2.) Most corps do have a couple dudes who multibox mining setups like that. Then the minerals get shipped off to jita and sold.

"Sometimes i really don't understand 0.0 people in this game."
It's more that you don't understand 0.0 logistics/game mechanics. It also sounds like you dealt with some fantastically ****** corps in the past. CTA? Seriously?

e: Not to mention that there just isn't currently enough low-ends to do any meaningful production in 0.0 without importing tons. This is getting helped along quite a bit with the next big patch.



1) Because you stop the logistics/intel nigthmare. These pilots making 7-10m isk/h in high sec could be doing 30/40m isk/h in 0.0 with close to 0 risk asuming that they are inside the blue donut field (Cloacky ***** are always a problem....but you could deal with that...)

2) And that's the problem


I understand the 0.0 logistics....they are 10 times easier than deep Wh's actually, and not a biggie, but a waste when you could potentially make a nice production now in 0.0 (WITH NEXT PATCH, that's what i'm talking about)

About CTA, i can't really argue with you since i don't know how big blobs manage that, so, maybe you are right. I was in a ****** corp probably, but i've been there, done that for almost a year....so yeah...at least SOME little 0.0 experience i do have.


What i can't understand about "0.0 people" like i said, it's how you don't want to totally cut off the high sec link, trully live in 0.0, make it your home, your life, your space, and forget about high sec.
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#135 - 2013-05-09 03:03:03 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:

We should instead be rebalancing the refined product yield for each type of ice. If the supply of highsec isotopes is too high then the rebalance should reflect this by lowering the refined supply slightly

The oversupply of ice is so significant that to bring supplies into some kind of balance through reduced refine yields we would need to make each block of ice yield less than 1/2 of a unit of isotopes.

I understand what you're saying, but that's not how I would view the situation. Technically there's an infinite supply of ice in the game, technically. But I consider the supply to be what is actually mined. And that supply is bound by the market prices of isotopes. When there are too many ice miners the price of isotopes drops, and then people stop mining because the hourly rate is so low. I never saw this as a problem because the problem was self-correcting.

So I'm considering this desire to change the ice system as a desire to push ice miners into low/nullsec. Since the highsec situation wasn't broken, you just wanted more isotopes to come from low/nullsec. Well the solution is incredibly simple. Just decrease the isotope yield of highsec racial variants to 200 isotopes (down from 300), give lowsec an improved racial with 300 isotopes, and nullsec an even better improved with 400 isotopes). Then highsec ice mining becomes less popular by comparison to low/nullsec, and a greater share of isotopes will come from non-highsec.

Likewise, with these changes there is no further need to double the yield rate of the ice miners. There is no need to introduce this power creep into the game. Power creep should be avoided at all costs.

While this is being done, the non-racial ices should be rebalanced to an escalating ozone yield so "better ices" are actually worth more:

Glare Crust: 500 ozone -> 150
Dark Glitter: 1000 ozone -> 250
Gelidus: 500 ozone -> 500
Krystallos: 250 ozone -> 1000

I actually consider the HW and stront within these non-racials to be balanced enough according to the original design. It's only the ozone that needs to be inverted.

These changes will eliminate the need for the 4hr respawn timers and bring orderly balance to the ice in the galaxy. The new dynamic ice system is a fine change to showcase the new features, but the 4hr timer will only hurt and frustrate the players.

  • In highsec: Players will get home from work in the US and EU primetimes, log on to mine and find no ice fields, or 100s of miners in a field that's about to deplete. The player will not be able to ice mine.
  • In lowsec: No one will mine here. Lowsec ice mining is never worth the risk-reward because the risk is insane and the profit is only marginally better than highsec.
  • In nullsec: An ice belt will spawn and the high value ices will be poached leaving 90% of the volume of the ice belt intact. Then a real mining team will come along half a day later, put in dozens of manhours, and finish off that ice belt. The 4hr respawn timer punishes the players who work to cycle the ice fields because they most likely won't be around in 4hrs to poach the high value ices out of the next one. 4hrs is an exceedingly long time for a player.
Petya Gladiator
Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#136 - 2013-05-09 03:58:32 UTC
Odyssey is on sisi now, i just checked the ice anomaly in null, and it looks same amount as in high. 4 hour respawns, then cloacky campers, who will mine ice in null. http://i.imgur.com/22G88Ao.jpg

Danni stark
#137 - 2013-05-09 07:45:56 UTC
Petya Gladiator wrote:
Odyssey is on sisi now, i just checked the ice anomaly in null, and it looks same amount as in high. 4 hour respawns, then cloacky campers, who will mine ice in null. http://i.imgur.com/22G88Ao.jpg



who will mine ice in null? any one with half a brain.

let's have a look, the isk/m3 value of an ice anom located in strong true sec in odyssey will be worth 358.39 isk/m3.
a 10% variant XL grav site, will be worth 290 isk/m3.

but mathematical wziard, you don't mine ice and ore at the same rate! well little timmy, that's true.
you mine approximately 8% more m3 of ore, than you do ice.
that means when we adjust the isk/m3 value of ice to compensate for this, a strong truesec null ice anom is reduced to the lowly 331.97 isk/m3.

i mean, who'd want 50isk/m3 more anyway?
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#138 - 2013-05-09 12:48:32 UTC
Petya Gladiator wrote:
Odyssey is on sisi now, i just checked the ice anomaly in null, and it looks same amount as in high. 4 hour respawns, then cloacky campers, who will mine ice in null. http://i.imgur.com/22G88Ao.jpg



The number of roids seems similar, however, the ice roids in null seem to be somewhat larger. In sec 0.5 empire ice belt which was closest to my login location the ice roid size was from 80 to 120 units. Not by a large margin larger, but still. Eyeballing it it seems to be that in null sec ice belts there is approx 3000 units of ice vs approx 2500 units in empire ice anomaly.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Danni stark
#139 - 2013-05-09 12:54:09 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Eyeballing it it seems to be that in null sec ice belts there is approx 3000 units of ice vs approx 2500 units in empire ice anomaly.


3000 units of improved racial ice in weak truesec areas of null.
3500 units of improved racial ice in strong truesec areas of null.
as per the sticky.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2013-05-09 13:20:35 UTC
Danni stark wrote:
Petya Gladiator wrote:
Odyssey is on sisi now, i just checked the ice anomaly in null, and it looks same amount as in high. 4 hour respawns, then cloacky campers, who will mine ice in null. http://i.imgur.com/22G88Ao.jpg



who will mine ice in null? any one with half a brain.

well, anyone with half a brain who doesn't live in a region blackops is hotdropping anything that moves in