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Which tank type to train first for PvP minnie pilot?
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Alyshie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-04-30 22:10:11 UTC
I am 3 weeks old training for pvp/combat only. I'm training Minmatar/gunnery and plan to train to AF > Cruiser > BC > HAC in that order.

It seems a lot of minnie ships can be tanked either way so I'm wondering which tank type will be most beneficial to train straight away.

Would it be recommended to train both tank types early on? I don't want to stifle my early gunnery skills by training for both shield and armor if I don't have to.

Thanks for any input!
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#2 - 2013-04-30 22:12:13 UTC
depends on who you fly with so both is always a good option
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2013-04-30 22:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Look at your current ship:

* If mid slots > low slots: possibly a shield tank.
* If low slots > mid slots: possibly an armor tank.
* If low slots = mid slots: probably can be either.

Typically Minmatar are fast moving and lightly armored skirmish ships, so I'd lean towards shield tanking, especially for the smaller ships like frigates and destroyers that one starts with.

That being said, I've been using an armor tanked artillery Hurricane battlecruiser for level 3 missions, though they are also commonly shield tanked.

It doesn't take long to train to level 3 or 4 in both though.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-04-30 22:53:11 UTC
Shield is a shorter train and works well on almost all minnie ships: go for shield, I can't think of a minnie ship that can't be shield tanked effectively (maybe one of the AFs but im not so experienced with those).

Art of Explosions
Alyshie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-01 01:03:56 UTC
Thanks all, I'll give shields a try for now and train armor as needed :)
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#6 - 2013-05-01 01:07:49 UTC
Alyshie wrote:
I am 3 weeks old training for pvp/combat only. I'm training Minmatar/gunnery and plan to train to AF > Cruiser > BC > HAC in that order.

It seems a lot of minnie ships can be tanked either way so I'm wondering which tank type will be most beneficial to train straight away.

Would it be recommended to train both tank types early on? I don't want to stifle my early gunnery skills by training for both shield and armor if I don't have to.

Thanks for any input!



Starting at AF: Wolf will def be armor and Jag can go both ways
Cruiser PvP will probably be Stabber (def shield) or Rupture (should be armor)
Gunnery BC will be the Cane. It can go both ways. I like armor Canes myself..but shield Cane fleets are badass in general.
HAC is the same basic aproach as the Stabber/Rupture hulls.

I would think a rookie will have better results with armor tank, until he learns how to kite/pilot/fly.

For the record, Minmatar is historicly harder to master as a first race. 2 weapons systems (3 really, AC's, Arty's, Missiles), 2 tanks.

Tau mentioned it.Train both tank types to 4 at first, then the *holes* in your tank to 5.

Your first decision will be: Wolf or Jag? Start there and work your way up. No choice is wrong for you, and keep on the gun skills in between. DPS is also a form of tank Cool
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-05-01 01:26:40 UTC
rupture can be shield tanked and I've had success with armour stabbers (mini SFIs kinda) just sayin'

Art of Explosions
Alyshie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-05-01 06:44:32 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Alyshie wrote:
I am 3 weeks old training for pvp/combat only. I'm training Minmatar/gunnery and plan to train to AF > Cruiser > BC > HAC in that order.

It seems a lot of minnie ships can be tanked either way so I'm wondering which tank type will be most beneficial to train straight away.

Would it be recommended to train both tank types early on? I don't want to stifle my early gunnery skills by training for both shield and armor if I don't have to.

Thanks for any input!



Starting at AF: Wolf will def be armor and Jag can go both ways
Cruiser PvP will probably be Stabber (def shield) or Rupture (should be armor)
Gunnery BC will be the Cane. It can go both ways. I like armor Canes myself..but shield Cane fleets are badass in general.
HAC is the same basic aproach as the Stabber/Rupture hulls.

I would think a rookie will have better results with armor tank, until he learns how to kite/pilot/fly.

For the record, Minmatar is historicly harder to master as a first race. 2 weapons systems (3 really, AC's, Arty's, Missiles), 2 tanks.

Tau mentioned it.Train both tank types to 4 at first, then the *holes* in your tank to 5.

Your first decision will be: Wolf or Jag? Start there and work your way up. No choice is wrong for you, and keep on the gun skills in between. DPS is also a form of tank Cool


I think the Wolf will be a bit harder to fly (kiting) and need to be more careful picking fights with it's weird armor resists. The Jag looks to be a bit more balanced with even shield resists and no particular strength or weakness.

I have been playing EVE for about 10 months and my "main" is Gallente and I have trained traditional drones/armor so shield tanking will be something new to try.

Thanks again for your suggestions.
Yami Badasaz
The Black Widow Company.
#9 - 2013-05-01 06:48:37 UTC
Alyshie wrote:
I am 3 weeks old training for pvp/combat only. I'm training Minmatar/gunnery and plan to train to AF > Cruiser > BC > HAC in that order.

It seems a lot of minnie ships can be tanked either way so I'm wondering which tank type will be most beneficial to train straight away.

Would it be recommended to train both tank types early on? I don't want to stifle my early gunnery skills by training for both shield and armor if I don't have to.

Thanks for any input!


You're really going to want to train both tbh. If you want to PVP you're going to want to be as flexible as you can. Me personally i started the game training armor skills then when i moved out to 0.0 moved on to Shield skills. (Most fleets i fly in are shield tanked. However i prefer flying armor.)


I would say for now train shield skills then move on from there. But stay with one thing for the first few months of your game time. Cross training doesn't help all that much at the start. (Though i did cross train 2 months into playing the game it did slow down my overall training time. IE i don't have t2 guns for any race yet.)


Good luck. o/
Vintah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-01 13:01:08 UTC
With the new "Armor Honeycombing" skill, armor tanking is much more viable in today's EVE than it was previously.

I would start out as an armor tanker as a newbie, it is much less skill/fit intensive as well.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-01 23:21:52 UTC
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-05-02 00:04:30 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.


Cane, rupture, support bellicose, heavy tackle stabber, wolf

to name a few fittings for minmatar armour.

Art of Explosions
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-05-02 02:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.

Cane, rupture, support bellicose, heavy tackle stabber, wolf
to name a few fittings for minmatar armour.

armour cane is blasphemy
shield ruppy craps all over armour ruppy
wtf is a bellicose??
stabber is probably the most specifically shield kite suited cruiser out there, stop being bad.
wolf? yeah, ok... i guess. frigs dont really count tho because at that point youre just fitting tank into whatever slots you have left tbh.

PS: i should add loki to the list of acceptable armour tanked minmatar ships btw. slipped my mind before.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#14 - 2013-05-02 11:53:42 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.


This.

Not today spaghetti.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-05-02 13:21:03 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.

Cane, rupture, support bellicose, heavy tackle stabber, wolf
to name a few fittings for minmatar armour.

armour cane is blasphemy
shield ruppy craps all over armour ruppy
wtf is a bellicose??
stabber is probably the most specifically shield kite suited cruiser out there, stop being bad.
wolf? yeah, ok... i guess. frigs dont really count tho because at that point youre just fitting tank into whatever slots you have left tbh.

PS: i should add loki to the list of acceptable armour tanked minmatar ships btw. slipped my mind before.


extremely narrow-minded veteran is what comes to mind when I read that.

Armour cane has been fielded since I've started playing this game and is standard for a brawling fleet.

Shield rupture will never beat an armour rupture unless it's fit for arties and kiting and then we're going into hypothetical situations where the shield rupture has fit specifically to deal with short range fits which isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Bellicose is the minmatar ewar cruiser with 5 mids meaning it can fit a whole array of target painters and remote boosting devices with the additional benefit of nobody knowing what it does so it won't get immediately blown up. Since it's using its mids for other modules, only makes sense to armour tank it.

Stabber has 4 mids and 4 lows with no bonuses related to either shield of armour tanking. Armour fits are better when you're acting as a heavy tackle, shield if you're skirmishing.

Art of Explosions
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#16 - 2013-05-02 14:53:19 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.

Cane, rupture, support bellicose, heavy tackle stabber, wolf
to name a few fittings for minmatar armour.

armour cane is blasphemy
shield ruppy craps all over armour ruppy
wtf is a bellicose??
stabber is probably the most specifically shield kite suited cruiser out there, stop being bad.
wolf? yeah, ok... i guess. frigs dont really count tho because at that point youre just fitting tank into whatever slots you have left tbh.

PS: i should add loki to the list of acceptable armour tanked minmatar ships btw. slipped my mind before.


extremely narrow-minded veteran is what comes to mind when I read that.

Armour cane has been fielded since I've started playing this game and is standard for a brawling fleet.

Shield rupture will never beat an armour rupture unless it's fit for arties and kiting and then we're going into hypothetical situations where the shield rupture has fit specifically to deal with short range fits which isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Bellicose is the minmatar ewar cruiser with 5 mids meaning it can fit a whole array of target painters and remote boosting devices with the additional benefit of nobody knowing what it does so it won't get immediately blown up. Since it's using its mids for other modules, only makes sense to armour tank it.

Stabber has 4 mids and 4 lows with no bonuses related to either shield of armour tanking. Armour fits are better when you're acting as a heavy tackle, shield if you're skirmishing.


The fact of the matter is in each ship class there are ships that are pretty much the best.

Can you fit an armor cane? Sure.

Will it be better than a harbinger? No.

Can you armor tank a Muninn? Sure.

Will it be better than a Zealot? No.

The Minmatar ships that are best in class are mostly shield tanked.

Not today spaghetti.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-05-02 21:36:57 UTC
Will it be better than harby.................at what?

If they are 1vs1 brawling each other?
In a fleet?
In solo pvp?
kiting?

Too many variables in this game to simply say "hurrrrrr shield cane is only fit ever"

Also did I even mention a muninn or zealot or how they should be fit?

Art of Explosions
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-05-02 23:44:25 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.

Cane, rupture, support bellicose, heavy tackle stabber, wolf
to name a few fittings for minmatar armour.

armour cane is blasphemy
shield ruppy craps all over armour ruppy
wtf is a bellicose??
stabber is probably the most specifically shield kite suited cruiser out there, stop being bad.
wolf? yeah, ok... i guess. frigs dont really count tho because at that point youre just fitting tank into whatever slots you have left tbh.

PS: i should add loki to the list of acceptable armour tanked minmatar ships btw. slipped my mind before.


extremely narrow-minded veteran is what comes to mind when I read that.

Armour cane has been fielded since I've started playing this game and is standard for a brawling fleet.

Shield rupture will never beat an armour rupture unless it's fit for arties and kiting and then we're going into hypothetical situations where the shield rupture has fit specifically to deal with short range fits which isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Bellicose is the minmatar ewar cruiser with 5 mids meaning it can fit a whole array of target painters and remote boosting devices with the additional benefit of nobody knowing what it does so it won't get immediately blown up. Since it's using its mids for other modules, only makes sense to armour tank it.

Stabber has 4 mids and 4 lows with no bonuses related to either shield of armour tanking. Armour fits are better when you're acting as a heavy tackle, shield if you're skirmishing.


firstly, I know what a Bellicose is. i was being ironic since asking how to fit one is like asking how to fit an eagle: who cares, no one flies them.

i know armour canes are flown, people fly all sorts of crappy fits that should never leave the docking bay.
the only advantage an armour cane has over shield is ehp. shield fit has more range, more dps, better tracking, better agility, is faster... and in all categories the difference is 15-20%, not just a little.

look, there are reasons (sadly) most sub BS PVP these days is done in shield ships

I'm saying all of this as someone why does mostly armour tank, but minmatar ships? yeah even I shield tank those...

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Clever Use of Neutral Toons
#19 - 2013-05-03 09:30:52 UTC
Train shield.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-05-03 12:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Jack Miton wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
If youre armour tanking a minmatar ship that isnt a typhoon, youre probably fitting it wrong.

Cane, rupture, support bellicose, heavy tackle stabber, wolf
to name a few fittings for minmatar armour.

armour cane is blasphemy
shield ruppy craps all over armour ruppy
wtf is a bellicose??
stabber is probably the most specifically shield kite suited cruiser out there, stop being bad.
wolf? yeah, ok... i guess. frigs dont really count tho because at that point youre just fitting tank into whatever slots you have left tbh.

PS: i should add loki to the list of acceptable armour tanked minmatar ships btw. slipped my mind before.


extremely narrow-minded veteran is what comes to mind when I read that.

Armour cane has been fielded since I've started playing this game and is standard for a brawling fleet.

Shield rupture will never beat an armour rupture unless it's fit for arties and kiting and then we're going into hypothetical situations where the shield rupture has fit specifically to deal with short range fits which isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Bellicose is the minmatar ewar cruiser with 5 mids meaning it can fit a whole array of target painters and remote boosting devices with the additional benefit of nobody knowing what it does so it won't get immediately blown up. Since it's using its mids for other modules, only makes sense to armour tank it.

Stabber has 4 mids and 4 lows with no bonuses related to either shield of armour tanking. Armour fits are better when you're acting as a heavy tackle, shield if you're skirmishing.


firstly, I know what a Bellicose is. i was being ironic since asking how to fit one is like asking how to fit an eagle: who cares, no one flies them.

i know armour canes are flown, people fly all sorts of crappy fits that should never leave the docking bay.
the only advantage an armour cane has over shield is ehp. shield fit has more range, more dps, better tracking, better agility, is faster... and in all categories the difference is 15-20%, not just a little.

look, there are reasons (sadly) most sub BS PVP these days is done in shield ships

I'm saying all of this as someone why does mostly armour tank, but minmatar ships? yeah even I shield tank those...


Do you still play this game? Bellicose has turned into quite the decent missile platform after the T1 cruiser revamp, I would say it's actually better than the caracal in it's frigate destroying role and also it makes a fantastic support ship, running tracking links, sebos and remote eccm up the wazoo, all while having 25k ehp in an armour tank.

Eagle on the other hand is just obsolete, completely different class of ship.

"only" advantage you listed is completely incorrect also. Shield fits and armour fits largely have the same ehp, the difference is the sig radius, minmatar bcs have the lowest sig radius of the lot and blowing it up with buffer shield fits is kind of counterproductive.

You generally don't want to fit a 1600 plate on it since the 7k ehp increase isnt worth the loss of speed, agility and ability to fit medium neut.

The other main difference is the ability to fit ewar (namely webs) in the mids or tracking computers if you're worried about range and /or tracking. The DPS difference is significant: 63 DPS, but that's expected between shield and armour as well as the speed difference of about 210m/s and the agility (align time is 0.8 seconds faster in shield) but that hardly matters in a brawling situation.

What does matter in a brawling situation is the ability to stop your opponent from moving: ie webs. Shields cannot fit webs unless you go pointless or drop a LSE (8k ehp loss) and then the fit becomes pointless unless you run in a fleet where you're guaranteed to never need a point.

So when we come down to what actually matters for a brawling BC: tank, ewar and dps. It seems the shield fit wins in one category, ties in the other and loses in the tank war.

Wow, seems balanced? Nowai.

Art of Explosions
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