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A strategic breakdown as to why a Caldari-Minmatar alliance is non-sense

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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-06-18 11:13:13 UTC
ECM is obviously overpowered.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#22 - 2013-06-18 11:15:10 UTC
...If you don't mind me saying, it seems a little peculiar to have one of the two factionally-opposed alliances completely outclass the other, canonically. Kind of takes something away from the conflict and the notion of a possibly looming total war.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#23 - 2013-06-18 13:18:48 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
...If you don't mind me saying, it seems a little peculiar to have one of the two factionally-opposed alliances completely outclass the other, canonically. Kind of takes something away from the conflict and the notion of a possibly looming total war.



Total war among large superpowers is often undesirable if not impossible, the risks and possible loses are way too high, think of it as mutually assured destruction, as CCP Said, chances are the caldari navy could defeat any of the other factions, or the amarr one, but the loses either would have would be impossible to fathom or accept for any political or military leader, there is just way too much at stake, specially considering you have a whole ******* cluster to get resources from, thus resources not being a limiting factor.


Would be interesting, but way too unlikely.


However given the current circumstances politically in EVE, the mind break of tibus heth, the latest issues between the federation and the minmatar republic, a minmatar caldari alliance, does not sound so unlikely, they have helped each other in the past or stolen stuff from each other (think cloaking tech).

I find it way more hard to think of a way to get the federation and the amarr together, those do are completely different not only in their goals but their cultures as well, tho I can imagine a faction ship having a quad bonused turret for face melting... ROF,Damage,Tracking,Optimal for beams @.@ the most focused DPS ship ever.
Isbariya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-06-18 13:38:47 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

1) Amarr Empire
2) Gallente Federation
3) Caldari State
4) Minmatar Republic



1) Amarr Empire
2) Caldari State
3) Gallente Federation
4) Minmatar Republic


Fixed that for you.

The Caldari Navy is by far the most technologically advanced, with the youngest, most up to date fleet and the largest ratio of battleships to other classes than any other Navy. Military service is also ingrained in the mentality of every Caldari, along with the acceptance that serving the State and being a part of something larger is part of an honorable life.

Despite being on the back foot to the Federation due to Heth's leadership, it's still the belief of most military analysts that the Caldari Navy would, with the right leadership, be capable of defeating any of the other three Navies.

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.



Need to get that on a shirt ^^
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#25 - 2013-06-18 17:11:58 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Despite being on the back foot to the Federation due to Heth's leadership, it's still the belief of most military analysts that the Caldari Navy would, with the right leadership, be capable of defeating any of the other three Navies.

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.

It may be better to say "Caldari naval forces", considering that the Caldari Navy is dwarfed by the combined size of the various megacorporate military/security forces. It probably also largely depends on the type of fight -- Caldari military doctrine is largely defensive and depends on having short supply lines, something that isn't particularly suited towards an offensive military conflict.

At least, in my opinion. :)
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#26 - 2013-06-18 17:16:49 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
...If you don't mind me saying, it seems a little peculiar to have one of the two factionally-opposed alliances completely outclass the other, canonically. Kind of takes something away from the conflict and the notion of a possibly looming total war.

It's worth noting that the Amarr have the additional problem that much of their military is tied down making sure that they can keep the individual holders and slaves from getting the bright idea to revolt, so even if they have a stronger military, they may not be able to deploy it as widely or as effectively as the Gallente and Minmatar.

And the Caldari, as I stated in my response to Falcon, aren't really set up to fight a prolonged offensive war, so they'll be really good if they get invaded, but they aren't going to have the means to push those gains into enemy territory very well. There's also the fact that the Caldari always have the Amarr in the back of their mind as a future threat, though the same could be said of the Gallente/Minmatar relationship at the moment I suppose.

Raw military force is one thing, but there's doctrinal/political factors that tie the hands of Amarr and Caldari, probably putting the Gallente and Minmatar on an equal footing.
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-06-18 17:26:55 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

1) Amarr Empire
2) Gallente Federation
3) Caldari State
4) Minmatar Republic



1) Amarr Empire
2) Caldari State
3) Gallente Federation
4) Minmatar Republic


Fixed that for you.

The Caldari Navy is by far the most technologically advanced, with the youngest, most up to date fleet and the largest ratio of battleships to other classes than any other Navy. Military service is also ingrained in the mentality of every Caldari, along with the acceptance that serving the State and being a part of something larger is part of an honorable life.

Despite being on the back foot to the Federation due to Heth's leadership, it's still the belief of most military analysts that the Caldari Navy would, with the right leadership, be capable of defeating any of the other three Navies.

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.



Well you certainly destroy all of our arguments..

So going by what you said, a Caldari and Minmatar alliance is possible then? Would make sense lore wise, since Caldari might has well be #1 if Amarr weren't employing Goons tactics(ie. Blob tactis).

So does that mean Goons stole Amarr strategy doctrine?.. ShockedCool

But why have both weakest empires has allies when the two most strongest are also allies. This would mean once the Caldari get their house in order and Heth is remove, then Amarr and the Caldari could at anytime launch a war to annilate both of these alliances. I mean only thing that is probably preventing this must be concord, seriously concord pfft...

This would also suggest why the Federation wasn't to quick on escalating the spat they had with the Republic. They know that both would come out weaker , and being already the two most weakest is something they would want to avoid at all cost.

This mean that both Gallentee and Minmatar "need" each other.. That's probably why the mataries wasn't afraid to escalate because they know given the status quo. The Federation would have to give in into their demands sooner or later.. Which is what happen..

Does that mean in the future we can expect more small scale Gal/Min events like corelie?
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-06-18 17:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

all-out war



LMAO...


I'm pretty sure dreadnoughts shooting at each other could start a war. If the Gallente really wanted to escalate things, they could.


Given what CCP Falcon just said.. I think the Feds were smart not to escalate. It is not that they couldn't . It is just strategically, given their circumstance, they couldn't.

From my point of view, the Federation and the Amarr never had the best relationship. The amarr are imperialistic and the only thing that keeps them at bay is a powerful military.

Also what does Amarr gain from being in an alliance with Gallentee compare to their current alliance right now with the second strongest in the cluster?

If the relationship between the Federation and the Republic were to break, the Amarrians have no incentative other to keep the Caldari in check to form an alliance with the Feds. But the Gallentees would be more press to form an alliance with the Amarr. Therefore placing the gallentees in a weaker position politicaly and at the mercy of the Amarr.

Or they could just go solo..

Remember nothing from the current event implied the Amarrs and Caldari do not get along. And even if the Caldari entered an alliance with the Republic, would the Amarrs really feel threatened?

At worst, it would mean they can't go after the Republic anymore. At best they can use their relationship with the Caldari to reign in the matars aggresion and go after the Fedaration since it's now alone.

But guess what both the Caldari state and the Amarrs share in common. They both do no like the Federation. The Amarrs may hate the Republic but that does not translate for love for the Federation either. Guess who was responsible for providing covert support for a Minnie rebellion.

Payback anyoneShocked?

In short, Gallentee had the most to lose coming out of this spat as a big loser, and at best with things remaining almost the same.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#29 - 2013-06-18 17:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
...If you don't mind me saying, it seems a little peculiar to have one of the two factionally-opposed alliances completely outclass the other, canonically. Kind of takes something away from the conflict and the notion of a possibly looming total war.


Raw military might only determines one thing, though: Who wins in a straight fight. And remember also, that this is only about their navies!

The Federation and the Republic both have their own strengths which put them at an equal footing with the Empire and the State, just not in raw naval might. The Federation, for example, has consistently proven its ability to win conflicts through its intelligence and unconventional warfare capabilities. The Republic, though having the weakest navy, have the most drive to win and likely a strong guerrilla warfare battle doctrine that focuses on crippling the enemy by hitting them where they are weakest and never allowing them to bring their full might to bear.

The Empire and the State have the most powerful navies in a straight fight, but there is more to conflict than just that. They might win battles, but lose wars.
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC
#30 - 2013-06-18 19:55:38 UTC
I've never been convinced the Caldari really allied with the Amarr.

The Caldari hate the holy **** out of the Gallente for the usual century-old-grudge type things real-world politics is plagued with, much like how Britain and France usually managed to trade openly despite being pretty much constantly at war for several hundred years.

The Gallente define themselves as being moral and upstanding for the underdog (unless it's the Caldari), so when the Minmatar broke away from the Amarr... the Gallente-est thing to do was to help the Minmatar. They couldn't not help, not without a public revolt over un-Gallente actions.

The Caldari took a look at the Amarr and thought "those guys are assholes."
The Amarr took one look at the Caldari and said "Your ancient foe is in our business. Mind helping?"
The Caldari applied their famous pragmatism for the same reasons the Gallente applied their famous love of liberty, and said "Yeah, sure, whatever."

And the Minmatar said "The frak is this? You were in our exact situation three hundred years ago!"
And the Caldari said "In all seriousness, we are mercenary as balls. Stop whining about the Real Politik and the arms shipments will continue. PS here's a 10% off gift voucher for Mordu & Sons Bespoke Face Melting as a thank you for your valued service in giving us more reasons to shoot at the Republic Issue Potato Squad."


Or so says my head-canon.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2013-06-18 22:17:34 UTC
Oooh. Do you need a compress for that burn, Seri?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Zelarrs Elkoth
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2013-06-19 00:28:11 UTC
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:

However, as a loyal citizen of the Caldari State and an active militia-capsuleer, I believe our alliance with the Amarr is a dangerous one. While we weren't slaves like the Minmatar, the Amarr will always see us as a breakaway, no matter how powerful a breakaway we have become. Unless we can conclusively seize control of the Caldari-Gallente militia warzone and push the megacorporations into formalising direct sovereignty over the captured systems, I fear we will remain the significantly weaker partner of our alliance with the Amarr. If the Amarrians truly wanted to, they could cease hostility with the Minmatar and Gallente and crush the State, and I don't feel comfortable knowing that possibility exists.

What can the State do about this? Covert support of the militia. Deniable ops, training of kill-squads, lending resources. With even the tiniest fraction of Empire support the State could sweep the militia warzone, and establishing direct control over so many systems would surely secure our future as an equal of the Amarr, regardless of whether the alliance holds.


You aren't breakaway. You developed on your own out of the dark ages like the Amarr. Minmatar are breakaway. Khanid was.

We, the Amarr, respect you and your civilization and you had the good sense to respect us. Unlike the hedonists who let their passions guide their actions instead of their better angels of sense.

Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Captain, Head of Diplomacy, Recruiting Officer Contact on channel: "PIE Public" "I walk the razor's edge of embracing the future while protecting what we value of the past."

Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-06-21 18:20:34 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
...If you don't mind me saying, it seems a little peculiar to have one of the two factionally-opposed alliances completely outclass the other, canonically. Kind of takes something away from the conflict and the notion of a possibly looming total war.


Raw military might only determines one thing, though: Who wins in a straight fight. And remember also, that this is only about their navies!

The Federation and the Republic both have their own strengths which put them at an equal footing with the Empire and the State, just not in raw naval might. The Federation, for example, has consistently proven its ability to win conflicts through its intelligence and unconventional warfare capabilities. The Republic, though having the weakest navy, have the most drive to win and likely a strong guerrilla warfare battle doctrine that focuses on crippling the enemy by hitting them where they are weakest and never allowing them to bring their full might to bear.

The Empire and the State have the most powerful navies in a straight fight, but there is more to conflict than just that. They might win battles, but lose wars.


Not to mention the Federation is the economic juggernaut of the cluster. I wouldn't be surprised if they could grind down the opposition as every lost ship is quickly replaced.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#34 - 2013-06-26 04:26:26 UTC
Scharena wrote:
Personally Im excited for the idea of a Cal/min alliance and I want to be part of it. If I can be.


Would you be as excited about the Amarr/Gallente alliance that would be the inevitable consequence of that?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-06-27 18:21:00 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.




Our 100-year old ships will blot out the sun!

Die in a fire, but blot out the sun!

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2013-07-02 17:48:03 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:

Not to mention the Federation is the economic juggernaut of the cluster. I wouldn't be surprised if they could grind down the opposition as every lost ship is quickly replaced.


It doesn't really work that way. Beyond a certain point your ability to put qualified crews in those new hulls completely breaks down and you wind up throwing good ships after bad.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#37 - 2013-07-02 20:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Raven Solaris wrote:

Not to mention the Federation is the economic juggernaut of the cluster. I wouldn't be surprised if they could grind down the opposition as every lost ship is quickly replaced.


It doesn't really work that way. Beyond a certain point your ability to put qualified crews in those new hulls completely breaks down and you wind up throwing good ships after bad.


To echo the point above, with the way the Federation Navy is currently set out, it would be nigh on impossible for them to maintain operational capabilities in the face of any kind of sustained heavy losses.

Gallente War Poster : We want YOU for the Front Lines!

Random Gallente Joe Public : Volunteer to be Cannon Fodder? Bugger that for a Joke! I know my Rights!
Stegas Tyrano
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-07-07 15:02:44 UTC
Regarding Amarr-Caldari Military superiority, aren't the Gallente and Minmatar more industrially and economically able than the Caldari/Amarr?

Therefore total war between the two sides would be equal as the Gallente and Minmatar would be on equal footing due to a war of attrition.

Herping your derp since 19Potato - [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2403364][Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts[/url]

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#39 - 2013-07-08 18:21:27 UTC
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Regarding Amarr-Caldari Military superiority, aren't the Gallente and Minmatar more industrially and economically able than the Caldari/Amarr?


Gallente yes. Not the Minmatar. The Minmatar are the poorest and least economically capable of the four empires.

Empire and Federation are the strongest, economically, State can be strong but is currently heavily in debt to the Empire, while the Republic is below everyone else.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#40 - 2013-07-09 09:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Leopold Caine
Samira Kernher wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Regarding Amarr-Caldari Military superiority, aren't the Gallente and Minmatar more industrially and economically able than the Caldari/Amarr?


Gallente yes. Not the Minmatar. The Minmatar are the poorest and least economically capable of the four empires.

Empire and Federation are the strongest, economically, State can be strong but is currently heavily in debt to the Empire, while the Republic is below everyone else.


But hey, people like the underdog, if that's any consolation.

Silas Vitalia wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.




Our 100-year old ships will blot out the sun!

Die in a fire, but blot out the sun!



I don't think 100 year old technology in the world 20.000 years into the future, given the level of technological advancement we have in EVE would be considered obsolete, if you pull it in parallel with real life military technology.
Given the insane technological development in the last century, there's still 100 years old pieces of hardware being successfully used all around the world. Not to mention a bullet still uses the same technology that's even older than that.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

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