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New scanning mechanism and its consequences

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#61 - 2013-04-29 15:24:24 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Max Teranous wrote:
1) Goto client code
2) Find the variable minimumWarpDistance = 150 km
3) Change to minimumWarpDistance = 350 km
4) Goto the pub

Sorted !


That sounds totally straightforward and I'm sure it wouldn't have any knock-on balance considerations :P

(Plus you'd just sit off-grid or yo-yo off a 1k BM, it'd slow things down somewhat but it's not obvious that it'd comprehensively solve the issue.)


If only we had another server where such changes could be implemented for testing, a test server, if you will.

I don't know if you're being ~edgy~ just to be an arse, but it should be fairly obvious that people don't play on test servers like they do on TQ, so testing actual balance for a proposed 350km minimum warp distance would involve scenarios that simply do not happen in normal play on test servers. Even a mass test would produce artificial, broadly meaningless results.

How many roaming gangs are there on test? How many of them actually care about loss enough to play as of it matters when everything costs 1 ISK? Most of the people on the test server are just playing with disposable supers.


Just because the majority of people don't visit the test server and because the majority of folks who ARE on the server don't really ever do anything beyond KM farming doesn't mean that the "powers that be" in regards to forming new strategies and doctrines won't do it. No one really cares about some guy who's trying to get kills in his T2 rigged Sleipnir with falcon and RR backup, it's about the groups of people who actually do or can matter and trust me; if there's something to be tested they're there, in force.

Having said that, it's not like you would have to test it at all. Anyone who's capable of abstract thinking and has decent understanding of tactics and game mechanics can visualise how that change would pan out.
Haulie Berry
#62 - 2013-04-29 15:26:36 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.


Did you actually read those changes?

Not a nerf.
Cadava Mendosa
#63 - 2013-04-29 15:33:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Cadava Mendosa wrote:
Slight tangent.

Query about the new System scanner and it showing up "Ore" sites.. will this be the same in all space?

IE Miners in Low/Null&WH space are going to have a very hard time mining?


All existing "Gravimetric Signatures" will become "Ore Anomalies". No changes to static belts are being made apart from the ice changes.


Aye, this is my concern, we have only one member in our WH corp who enjoys mining, and his ability to see a drop coming in has just decreased from 5-15seconds to zero due to the sigs becoming anoms.

Even 5 seconds can make the difference between losing a fleet of barges vs maybe half lol.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-04-29 15:42:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
All existing "Gravimetric Signatures" will become "Ore Anomalies".


I hope this change is reconsidered. It causes significant problems in wormholes. It significantly reduces the potential of mining in low sec. It hinders mining in null sec. The only benefits are in high sec, and are minimal. People who do not want to scan will still have many ore asteroid belts available to them.

I would also like to see the ice be placed into signatures (requiring scanning with probes), but at least consider keeping the ore in signatures.
Grigori Annunaki
#65 - 2013-04-29 15:48:22 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.


Did you actually read those changes?

Not a nerf.

Since it's being changed from (at V) one 50% bonus to two 25% bonuses (which multiply to ~44%), it is actually a nerf. We're losing about 6%, though the modules will bring that back to roughly where it was originally. So, to have the same numbers, you need to use the new modules as well.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#66 - 2013-04-29 15:48:27 UTC
Not trying to sound elitist or anything, but in my experience making things more convenient is not always a good thing - most EVE mechanics are already quite simple (hard part comes in preparation, research and planning rather then combat (or scanning) act itself - not like there is much twitch-based gameplay).
Sure that probing is tedius due to time required to launch probes, position them into formation and stuff, but is automating these things good for the game? not really sure myself - imo solution is making process less tedious but more player skill intense
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#67 - 2013-04-29 16:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
You have a really low bar for "skilled". The only actual skill with scanning is ninja probing ships and even that is stupidly easy to learn.

Just say you like using the swift and bitter DSP guide to dumb down what you're doing and consider it "skill". From what I heard there is nothing in the new system to stop you from using manual formations so...


Like I said not everyone will understand the difference between a skilled scanner and a not so good one. Ninja scanning ships are certainly part of that arsenal, and unless your pvp targets are incredibly stupid, then they will easily detect your probes if you don't have high skills. I suggest you should probably find some more challenging pvp targets. Also using DSP guide is another tool in a scanners arsenal, I don't see anything dumb about using that and pretty much anyone who is serious uses those techniques.



Like I said, there is no real skill and you're talking out your butt. Your "arsenal of skills" is a dsp probe and a guide....please...I suggest you get a new dummy guide when the update goes live.

What's another weapon in the super skilled probing arsenal? Knowing signatures only spawn around celestials so don't waste time in big empty places doing wide scans? Roll
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-04-29 16:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:
Not trying to sound elitist or anything, but in my experience making things more convenient is not always a good thing - most EVE mechanics are already quite simple (hard part comes in preparation, research and planning rather then combat (or scanning) act itself - not like there is much twitch-based gameplay).
Sure that probing is tedius due to time required to launch probes, position them into formation and stuff, but is automating these things good for the game? not really sure myself - imo solution is making process less tedious but more player skill intense


yeah, it's a pretty mechanical process even after you've manually formed your probes. still, i lieu of a more comprehensive overhaul (perhaps one that integrates dscan) i'm all for it. eve should be difficult, not tedious.

forums.  serious business.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#69 - 2013-04-29 16:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Haulie Berry wrote:
Did you actually read those changes?

Nope.

Oh god.
Haulie Berry
#70 - 2013-04-29 16:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Grigori Annunaki wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.


Did you actually read those changes?

Not a nerf.

Since it's being changed from (at V) one 50% bonus to two 25% bonuses (which multiply to ~44%), it is actually a nerf. We're losing about 6%, though the modules will bring that back to roughly where it was originally. So, to have the same numbers, you need to use the new modules as well.


This is only true for scanning time and deviation, both of which are boring.

It's not true for probe strength, which goes up instead of down and, incidentally, is really the only important one. That goes from .5 to .5625.

So, yeah, not a nerf.
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-04-29 16:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
CCP Greyscale wrote:

You can still break probes out of the formation and manipulate them manually, which I think answers most of your questions?

The functionality of the deep space probe should largely be replaced by the new scanner overlay doohickey, which gives you a nice visual overview of what signatures are present in system, and their *approximate* location (give or take a reasonable number of AU).


I think you dont understand why players have problems with this.

First most of explorers wanted really small changes in UI ,maybe more sites to explore or better balance in terms of where some DED plexes should spawn,What you are giving us is lets make less PITA for players that had problem to go to youtube ,type "scanning eve" and get all answers .

What is even worse exploring community did sick job to make exploring competative and you needed effort to skill up ,scan fast and learn how to travel to lower sec space.

Now you gave us some so simple thing ,and on board scan that replace DSP probe that ask lvl 3 skill to train and bunch of other skills to perform better.Do you see problem there ??

Your dev team claimed on first day we dont want pandas in space,sorry to ask what is that loot pinjata breaking and running for green cookies ?? I mean come on it looks nice ,but that is so terrible idea.

Exploration and scanning are niche profession ,with not 100% I win button and that needed bunch of luck with knowing how.

Changes in scanning are making all affecting that so easy ,in game that is harsh ,ye right.For god sake you are even making player not do effort to mine better ores by scanning gravi sites.On board scan FTW.PVP scanning with preset probe formations will be hilarious.I really hope you had chance to be in situation to avoid combat probes.Do some of you people ever played this game ?I know I sound rude now,but this is really big problem.

With changes to onboard scanner and gravi sites ,tell us how you imagine players in wormholes will mine now?

What pisses me the most is ,for all ship balances we had nice sticky in features and ideas.Why that was not case about this?Why you need always to make your mind about some big as this without telling no one?Who ever was in dev team should check how CCP Fozzie and RIse communicated with community and learn how it should to be done.

Btw for end ,I hope you understand how green and red shows for colorblind people when you were choosing cookies for loot pinjata mini game.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#72 - 2013-04-29 16:37:12 UTC
Kadl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
All existing "Gravimetric Signatures" will become "Ore Anomalies".


I hope this change is reconsidered. It causes significant problems in wormholes. It significantly reduces the potential of mining in low sec. It hinders mining in null sec. The only benefits are in high sec, and are minimal. People who do not want to scan will still have many ore asteroid belts available to them.

I would also like to see the ice be placed into signatures (requiring scanning with probes), but at least consider keeping the ore in signatures.


With greater reward comes greater risk. High end ores are getting a massive buff. This is a massive change and it does affect me also. But I won't complain because think of all that extra lovely trit and pyre we will be getting from our arkanor ores now. :)
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-04-29 16:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
you're talking out your butt. Your "arsenal of skills" is a dsp probe and a guide....please...I suggest you get a new dummy guide when the update goes live.


Someone sounds like they are raging at the end of their keyboard.

Check back in this thread where I've already mentioned 2 or 3 advanced techniques when speaking with greyscale. You obviously missed that as was too busy to rage posting.

I'm not giving dummies like you even more of the advanced techniques. But if you are so great tell me the method for quickly setting up an 8 probe formation?? And tell me how to quickly scan an entire system of over 30 sigs in under 5 minutes?? Let me guess, you won't be able to because you've barely scratched the surface like I said to you before. Now go back to hunting carebears and let us intelligent people continue this discussion.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#74 - 2013-04-29 16:44:09 UTC
The new feature of seeing sigs in space does not make the DSP obsolete. Why would I pan my camera around looking for sigs in space when I can just launch a DSP, see all the sigs in a neat layout, and recall DSP to cargo bay... all within the time frame of warping from one gate to another. AND I get to see the base sig strengths for each sig, which I don't believe the in-space view shows. The only thing the in-space view does is let you know which planet to put your probes on, after you've decided what sig you want to scan down... which would seem to make high levels of scanning skills rather pointless. You don't need to narrow in on sigs as much anymore, you can plainly see where the sig is going to be.

As for the new modules, any amount of added ease of scanning ships down certainly isn't going to encourage people to run sites in lowsec.

Gravs being moved to ore anomalies... the few people who still bother to mine in WHs will no longer bother. Noobs in highsec no longer get to feel special having a hemorphite/jaspet belt to themselves, or simply mine in peace when gankers are afoot. I'm glad they don't clutter up my sigs anymore though.

The only change I can feel excited about and approve of is the auto-launching and auto-formation of probes. Saves my poor wrist and elbow a lot of grief. Those who say this is dumbing down the game are being ridiculous. Launching probes is akin to pressing F1 over and over. They could easily make the auto-launcher still launch one probe at a time with a normal cycle time between each auto-launch, or just multiply the cycle time by 7 and release probes at the end of the cycle... if the time spent launching probes is found to be an important factor in our current system. In fact thats how I assumed they would do it, press button for launcher, and it auto-launches probes until it is depleted, maintaining the existing cycle time. I'm surprised they made it just spit them all out at once.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#75 - 2013-04-29 16:57:41 UTC
CCP should bring back some sort of probing penalty on ships inside DED sites and such. Then we can have all this time-saving and wrist-saving luxury while still allowing site runners a chance to see probes on dscan. Just make sure that the penalty is not applied uniformly to any ship, so people can't take a near unprobeable tengu in and become unprobeable. The formula would have to take into account the ship's sig with all sig-reducing modules active. Tricky.

And keep ore sites off of anomaly scan and thus require probes, but prefix them all with an O so they can be ignored. O-MRV-563. filter -> ignore ore sites
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#76 - 2013-04-29 17:01:27 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I approve of this sort of reply! Does this mean we can get rid of d-scan too?


We'd like to look at how we can overhaul/replace/whatever d-scanning at some point, as it's an important tool and we're cautiously optimistic that we can do something better with it. No timescale though.


Vilnius Zar wrote:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Making it unnecessarily difficult is silly but making it take effort, time and experience is NOT silly. Scanning as a profession that needs to be "mastered" and requires effort is good, automated dumb **** for non-effort easy mode clowns is terrible and even contemplating it as an option is so terrible there's seriously no words for it. If you have any plans in that regard (and perhaps for other stuff in EVE too) just say so now and save me the bother of logging in to add skills.


So... I kinda agree, but I kinda disagree. The bits of difficulty in the probing system where the difficulty is driven by other players are really interesting. The bits of difficulty where you're essentially playing a single-player game against the server I would say are less interesting in the context of an MMO like EVE, and divorced from their consequences to the rest of the game we'd generally lean towards cutting down that sort of difficulty, on the assumption that the time players would previously invest in that work would instead be spent interacting with other players (synchronously or asynchronously, directly or indirectly).

That's the general principle, anyway: we want people to have an edge in S&I, for example, because they've outsmarted their competition, not because they're better at using the S&I UI (which is not very efficient currently). When it comes to specific features, generally their consequences are not divorced from the rest of the game, and those consequences alter the equation so we look at them on a case-by-case basis.


CCP Greyscale, This is what some players are saying: "One way I can outsmart my opponents is by putting in the time and effort to get very very good at playing a single player game against the server, better than anyone would have thought. Now you are taking that method of outsmarting my opponents away."

Be aware of this line of thinking.

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mkint
#77 - 2013-04-29 17:08:43 UTC
posting in another Grayscale "I'm rihght you're wrong, so suck it" thread.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#78 - 2013-04-29 17:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
I asked elsewhere and got no answer.
Ive seen "Relic", "Gas", "Data", and "Ore" sites mentioned, all replacing existing sites. What about the "unknown" category? Are there new names for wormhole sites and combat sites?

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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-04-29 17:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
CCP Greyscale..

No matter what you do you have to interact on some level with others, its how the game is made (you should know that), its how intense the experience is that is the variable, but you just cannot escape it no matter how hard you try.

So are you now dictating how intense the experience will be, as on one hand your making the game friendly and easy mode (or DTFD) but adding complication . Remember that the Power of Two actually does away with a lot of group interaction, people use 2 or more clients/screens/PC´s for group activities, so are you just trying to up subs by the back door and making the meta game even more prevalent and adding to the distrust in Eve that makes multi boxing attractive?

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-04-29 17:19:55 UTC
The problem is no one wants to take forever to scan down signatures. It's already time consuming and tedious. On the other hand, the faster you can probe, the easier it is to probe down ships. It's already too easy to do so, making sniper fleets a thing of the past.

The solution is to revamp the system so scanning down ships works entirely differently than scanning down signatures. This allows CCP to adjust the time requirements of one independently of the other.

PvE and PvP are not the same thing, and should be balanced separately.