EVE General Discussion

double posted somehow during an edit, sorry.

I love my t1 subcaps, and if corps didn't universally require t2 module fittings, I could be mildly content. (edit that's a lie, I mission, rat and plex). I love frigs because t1 works with them.

But yes, people want the good stuff, and it comes from moon-goo (maybe the BEST stuff comes from wormholes).

But the absolute end users are better described as consumers. And when they guard the moon, you seem to call them producers and I can't (at the moment) call that an unfair depiction.

Granted, there are lots of middle man processes in t2 industry though.

It actually all comes from Jita, as far as most "industrialists" are concerned.

Uh, I used your statements. Not really anything to "weasel" out of.

The reason it is unreasonable is because the "500" has no basis.

I understand where you can get 500 man hours to equate 5bil. But that's it.

using 250 as a model for pilots and 2 man hours per is roughly a formula to GET to the figure of 500. It has no other basis because not every fleet that defends a moon uses 250 pilots for 2 hours.

Even your "average" would not fit that bill. So I'm calling you out on fudging a number to belittle the importance of the income as a passive source of isk wealth.

Sorry you seem so upset, but it's your faults I'm questioning, regardless how many times you use "strawman".

You are right though... you are an unverifiable source. I apologize for using your own words.

Naw, null sec is broken because supercaps.

Soundwave should follow his instinct and make all supercap BPOs into BPCs.

yk

So what happens if the pos is attacked for the entire month... how many man hours is that?

So what happens if the pos is not attacked at all for the month... how many man hours is that?

Where does 500 figure into "keeping it up and running" which seems a bit vague to me.

How about this... why don't you just break down the entire sequence from start to finish, complete with # of man hours per activity to get that moon tower "up and running" and see the factual evidence so I can't do anything but recognize the facts. (pretend you are outlining a program to implement so we can justify the need and reasoning behind it).

Don't worry about "averages"... we can figure out the average and the mean from the raw data you supply.

I'd hate to be accused of straw manning because I have to try to keep up with your nonsensical factoids.

Ah. Page 21.... I said I'd say hello by this page. After the thread was locked and all those "gud posts" deleted, I thought we never make to this point.

I want to thank everyone who is so mad about the sorry state of Null sec industry that they are compelled to post constantly as they fear that if one person wins the argument that the devs will change their minds and give a buff to hi-sec instead.

If there's one thing the rest of us can agree on, it's **** WHers.

(just joking. love you guys)

see bottom for tl;dr

1. there are 720 hours in a month (where "month" is understood to be 30 days). Given that EVE downtime is daily, and that your enemies aren't likely to log out in your space, we will assume a maximum playable time of 23 hours per day.

23 * 30 = 690 playable hours per month.

The man-hours spent defending the tower will depend on how many pilots the Defending Alliance commits.

1 pilot = 690 man-hours
10 pilots = 6900 man-hours
100 pilots = 69000 man-hours
500 pilots = 345000 man-hours
n pilots = 690n man-hours


2. It's been a long time since I've personally looked at the tower mechanics and scanned moons, so I'm using base numbers from the wiki. Hopefully they're accurate enough for this exercise (and that I'm understanding them right).

Now, we'll specifically look at Curse. It's a relatively small region (50 systems), with systems containing between 7 and 95 moons.

The best moon scanning probe will take 5 minutes per moon. Now, you can have multiple scans going at once, so it's not a multiplicative process (that is, it won't take 35 minutes plus travel time for a 7 moon system).

For the ease of numbers, we will assume that it takes 30 seconds to warp from any object (gate, moon, sun, planet, etc) to a moon or any other object. We will also assume that you land 5,000 km from the surface of a moon, probes travel at 3,000 m/sec and must reach the surface of the moon before their flight time ends (IIRC, you may just have to shoot in the general direction of the moon and wait til the timer expires). you must also sit in system til all moon scanning is completed.

I believe (though could be very wrong) that the probe only needs to be sent in the general direction of the moon, and will scan it provided you're aligned. Otherwise, this means the following:

1. the fast probes will need to be launched within 900 km of the moon surface
2. the middle probes will need to be launched within 1800 km of the surface
3. the slow probes will need to be launched within 7200 km of the surface

(I don't recall needing to do this, so from here on out, I'm going to assume that you only need to worry about being aligned, and how long the probe will take.)

Now, 30 seconds per warp means that we can start 9 moons for every 5 minute "cycle" (because we'll always be 30 seconds behind -- that is, assuming perfect timing every shot, we'll get the 10th moon at 330 seconds in the system). After the last moon, there is an additional 5 minute wait for that probe. To make things easy, we will make the assumption that anything less than 9 moons still takes 5 minutes to scan as obviously humans can't hit that 30 second fire rate perfectly every time.

Back to Curse-
2 systems <=9 - 10 min (0.33 MH)
3 systems <=18 - 15 (0.75 MH)
4 systems <=27 - 20 (1.33 MH)
6 systems <= 36 - 25 (2.5 MH)
9 systems <= 45 - 30 (3 MH)
10 systems <=54 - 35 (5.8333 MH)
5 systems <= 63 - 40 (3.33 MH)
7 systems <=72 - 45 (5.25 MH)
1 system <= 81 - 50 (0.833 MH)
2 systems <=90 - 55 (1.833 MH)
1 system <= 99 - 60 (1 MH)

Totals = 25.98999 MH, so 26 to scan all the moons.

A tower takes one (1) hour to anchor, and another hour to online. bare minimum is 2 man-hours, though you're likely to have at least a token guard force, maybe 10 pilots total for this operation. so 20 man-hours.

Since each tower will likely follow similar building principles, we can assume 6 defensive gunstars, each taking 15 minutes to online (before ammo), as well as up to 9 hardeners taking 22.5 minutes to online, plus 70 seconds anchoring time for each gunstar and 90 seconds anchoring for the hardeners, the stuff actually related to moongoo is 5/5 for anchor/online. Not everything can be onlined at once, so the time may fluctuate a bit, each turret or hardener not onlined saves 2.5 minutes.

When I was doing this (a long time ago, before JF's), it took me 1.5-2 hours every 3 days to babysit the towers. Additionally, every 15 days I would take another hour to fuel the towers involved. Every 30 days, I worked with another pilot to get cynos up (we both were moving product out, so would have an alt at either endpoint) ... this usually took 6-7 hours, because of small cargoholds, needing to be smart about lighting the cyno and other time sinks. every 31st day, 4 hours or so were spent carting product to market, and buying fuel. ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM is 50 man-hours of work for babysitting reactions, and obviously other players could make that take a lot longer (camps, roams, etc.).


TLDR --
ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM is 50 man-hours of work for babysitting reactions, and obviously other players could make that take a lot longer (camps, roams, etc.).

That 500 man-hour average figure is the estimated average amount of time that POS/moongoo holding alliances spend keeping their stuff running for the cycle (30 days). As we're saying bare-minimum is 50 MH per month, this leaves us with 5400 MH we need to come up with over 12 months to reach our "500 MH/mnth" average.

you can do it however you wish, from 450 MH per month to 5400 MH in one month (and 11 of no fighting), or any combination in between such that 5400 MH are spent dealing with towers over the course of a year.

Only difficult industry in nullsec is T2, as many others have already shown well. PI helped but need some help with moon materials