These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault.

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#341 - 2013-05-01 16:56:02 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


That's where the argument comes from. You do NOT HAVE to spend 500 man hours defending a moon to gain that 5bil from it. You might HAVE to spend 500 man hours ice mining to equate the same income.

Hence the flaw.


Right, because your POS will still be making moongoo after it's been RF'd or destroyed. Roll



So you're claiming it takes 500 man hours to watch a reinforced tower? How about if the tower is full online 23/7 and it's never attacked?

You know, because everyone is just structure grinding right now and all.

I'm trying to figure out where your comment would fit in the exact measurement of 500 man hours. Because even if you defend and lose the towers, you still aren't gaining the materials no matter how many man hours are put into it.

Sort of like ice mining.. oh wait. No. Because if you lose a ship others can still mine.

Almost seems like they are so different you can't compare.

Gee.



No, I'm claiming that if you don't take your 250-man fleet out for 2 hours to kill the invasion force, you get your tower RF'd (hey, less income). I'm also claiming that if your tower is already reinforced and you don't bring a 250-man fleet out for 2 hours, it will die to the attackers.

either case, in order to defend the tower, you have just spent 500 man-hours defending the tower.

Now, you are right that if the POS doesn't get attacked, you aren't spending 500 man-hours defending it.

In my own experiences, there are daily (or every other day) roams planned for each timezone by the corp.

This means a fleet of about 25 people roaming around for an hour (maybe 2). Across four time zones this is already 100-200 man-hours spent per day on "defense"; and over the course of a month, we've spent 3-6,000 man-hours defending 70-odd systems with patrols alone.

Now, we have longer ops (with more players) each weekend for killing off red POS (best defense is a good offence Blink). I never really pay attention to how long those fleets are out, but for the sake of round numbers, let's say it's 4-7,000 man hours of work (which means that every fri - sun, we're putting in 1,000 - 1750 man-hours ... or given 3 days/weekend, 333-583 man hours per day ... which is 100 pilots for 3.33 - 5.83 hours per day, and 100 pilots for these "big" ops seems extremely low turnout since my corp is fielding 100/day just roaming around).

Spending 10,000 man-hours per month, with 70 systems means that we're spending 142 and change man-hours per system, just on proactive defense of our stuff. This isn't taking into account any reactive "WE'RE GETTING SHOT AT! EVERYONE LOG IN NOW" pings that come up over the course of a month, which could bring a full fleet (250 persons) in for 1-4 hours (oh look, another 250-1,000 man hours).


@Liz -- no, if the tower's RF'd, everything needing CPU goes offline (moon harvesters, silos, reactors, hardeners, ewar, etc).


But all that is not set aside simply for moon defense. It's corp/alliance ops for fun as well.

I'm in a corp that doesn't have moons and we do stuff like that frequently, be it poco bashing, RF'ing, gate camps, responding to hostile activity, roams, etc.

Most of it is voluntary as well.

It's how things are kept fun and not just work.

But that does not lend or diffuse the fact that you can't do other stuff at the same time that moon tower is churning out material, be it watching t.v or ratting anoms/belts, mining, or trading, or even just restocking fitted ships for personal use or contracts.

But then that's my point, you CAN do other things at the same time.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2013-05-01 16:59:27 UTC
Otherwise you are lending voice to joining that corp so you can be someones patrol ***** (which noone wants to pay to do).

But I'm going to assume those that roam are looking to find things to destroy, not make sure there is nothing to destroy (slight but significant difference).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#343 - 2013-05-01 17:06:02 UTC
it's painful to watch someone Not Get It for this long
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#344 - 2013-05-01 17:09:23 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

I call shenanigans.



oooh, sh*t just got real.

As the O.P. I think it is my duty to remind you that a declaration of shenanigans is a very serious charge. Lol
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#345 - 2013-05-01 17:12:42 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

I call shenanigans.



oooh, sh*t just got real.

As the O.P. I think it is my duty to remind you that a declaration of shenanigans is a very serious charge. Lol



LOL

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#346 - 2013-05-01 17:15:31 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



stuff




What part of having fleets of ships ready all the time is so hard for you to get?

Its the entire point of having a military force.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#347 - 2013-05-01 17:18:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



stuff




What part of having fleets of ships ready all the time is so hard for you to get?

Its the entire point of having a military force.



Uh what are you talking about that has to do with this topic?

You entered a conversation about passive incomes versus active incomes in regards to moon mining being a significant factor.

Not about having a military force.

What part of that did YOU not get?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#348 - 2013-05-01 17:20:36 UTC
It's like trying to explain evolution to a fundy. Some people just don't want to get it.

I would (and will) stop bothering.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Velicitia
XS Tech
#349 - 2013-05-01 17:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Murk Paradox wrote:


But all that is not set aside simply for moon defense. It's corp/alliance ops for fun as well.

I'm in a corp that doesn't have moons and we do stuff like that frequently, be it poco bashing, RF'ing, gate camps, responding to hostile activity, roams, etc.

Most of it is voluntary as well.

It's how things are kept fun and not just work.

But that does not lend or diffuse the fact that you can't do other stuff at the same time that moon tower is churning out material, be it watching t.v or ratting anoms/belts, mining, or trading, or even just restocking fitted ships for personal use or contracts.

But then that's my point, you CAN do other things at the same time.


OK, so you own no moons ... this explains a lot.

A POS takes 720 hours to output 5 billion ISK.
Mining ice takes 500 man-hours to output 5 billion ISK.


RDN has 1549 members (according to Dotlan), which means that if we assume an even split of pilots across 4 regions, we have approximately 375 pilots on at any one time. This means that we've got 270,000 man-hours per month in which to do things in any one TZ (or 1.08 million man-hours per month).

If I get a ping from the FCs right now to defend a tower, and everyone shows up (375 pilots) for 2 hours, we just burned 750 man-hours keeping the POS up ... and it made a whopping 13 million ISK (which won't even be seen til the end of the month).

conversely, if we spent the next 2 hours (750 man-hours) mining ice, we would make 7.5 billion ISK. and there's no guarantee that we _will not_ have to spend 500+ man-hours to defend that POS later (today, next week, the 23rd ... whenever).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#350 - 2013-05-01 17:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
(Varius Xeral)
Are you just witch hunting now? I don't get where you're keying in from.

Everyone knows moon mining is a significant factor in regards to an alliance income because of its nature. That as a conflict driver it's a fail, has been, and will be (why it is getting fixed).

The topic, is to discuss how it is because of the actions and handling of those mechanics from the player side of things, be it from not wanting to continue to do structure grinds (which still happen) or focus on other aspects of gameplay unrelated.

Because of that you have 2 sides of people, those that care about THEIR stuff, or those that worry about the other guy's stuff and how they don't have it based on their current situation.

One side tries to dumb down the importance as to keep possession of that element, and the other side blows the importance out of proportion because of kneejerk responses.

HOW you make them work is irrelevant.

The COSTS and organization of those methods of income are irrelevant as well, since they can be handled in multiple ways.

The NATURE of those methods, and the people that utilize them, are what we fundamentally speak of.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2013-05-01 17:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Velicitia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


But all that is not set aside simply for moon defense. It's corp/alliance ops for fun as well.

I'm in a corp that doesn't have moons and we do stuff like that frequently, be it poco bashing, RF'ing, gate camps, responding to hostile activity, roams, etc.

Most of it is voluntary as well.

It's how things are kept fun and not just work.

But that does not lend or diffuse the fact that you can't do other stuff at the same time that moon tower is churning out material, be it watching t.v or ratting anoms/belts, mining, or trading, or even just restocking fitted ships for personal use or contracts.

But then that's my point, you CAN do other things at the same time.


OK, so you own no moons ... this explains a lot.

A POS takes 720 hours to output 5 billion ISK.
Mining ice takes 500 man-hours to output 5 billion ISK.


RDN has 1549 members (according to Dotlan), which means that if we assume an even split of pilots across 4 regions, we have approximately 375 pilots on at any one time. This means that we've got 270,000 man-hours per month in which to do things in any one TZ (or 1.08 million man-hours per month).

If I get a ping from the FCs right now to defend a tower, and everyone shows up (375 pilots) for 2 hours, we just burned 750 man-hours keeping the POS up ... and it made a whopping 13 million ISK (which won't even be seen til the end of the month).

conversely, if we spent the next 2 hours (750 man-hours) mining ice, we would make 7.5 billion ISK. and there's no guarantee that we _will not_ have to spend 500+ man-hours to defend that POS later (today, next week, the 23rd ... whenever).



Yes, this account right here does not personally own any moons. That has no bearing on anything related here.

My point, in regards to what you shown in your example, is that while you are not in a CTA to defend that moon, you can effectively ice mine while waiting for a CTA, and combine the incomes.

The argument against me, put forth by Tippia, is that you can only do one or the other. If there is no CTA, no need to defend, that moon tower is still chugging away generating materials for you to sell.

If that tower does NOT get attacked, and your system has been "dead" for an entire month, 0 man hours spent (apart from freightering fuel etc) to gain that same amount of isk. PLUS the isk you have gotten from ACTIVE income sources.

There is no reason you cannot have multiple streams of income if you have both passive and active incomes. To assume an alliance only has 1 method of income is folly and the whole point of my argument.

You can agree or disagree as you see fit, but noone ever wants only 1 iron in the fire.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2013-05-01 18:01:56 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
You make it sound tasty.

I previously have preferred structure shoots over roams because roams so often yield zero fights, whereas with a structure you can at least punish cowardice.

I imagine in Odyssey that miners will still be as cowardly as ratters, but if we roam often enough,or loiter long enough, then yeah I can picture the other side fleeting up if they need their precious ice.

Or will ice camping will be the new gate camping?

edit: If it becomes an obligation, it would probably just result in a shift of where gate campers camp.


I don't blame you for dreading roams given the current system of mostly empty nullsec with a few very skittish ratters. And they aren't changing structure shots, so those are still an option.

Right now though, there are very few miners to shoot because mining in nullsec is limited to cherry picking and exporting a few highends. There are not many people trucking around industrial goods because few people are extracting a broad group of raw materials, the factory slots are too few to build much, and rock bottom ice prices from near-infinite highsec ice belts make JF importing far more attractive. There aren't even a whole lot of ratters because L4 missions, Incursion and Faction Warfare pay about as much and can be done in empire space where logistics are just so much easier. It also tends to be done on alts so that your nullsec enemies can't even come after that personal income source.


I'm hoping these changes mean more people mining in nullsec, both ore and ice. Ice is obvious because ccp has stated a goal of limiting highsec extraction to less than total demand. And I'm expecting ore mining to increase as more factory slots and the increase in JF costs make local production more lucrative.






And will all of you please just drop the whole moon mining debate. Who cares how many man hours it takes to defend. The point of the comparison to ice mining wasn't about whether you could mine ice while repping a tower, but to put into perspective the real income of a tech moon. Tech moons that are only held by a few groups and had to be manipulated by clever players to be worth such high prices.

It completely ignores how much the rest of nullsec is so crappy that there are effectively no in-game conflict drivers in most of nullsec. Look at all the recent wars (because the blue donut is a myth) and the vast majority are over the meta-game. Boredom, personal insults and old grudges, people who got kicked out of their space taking some new space based on what is easiest to take.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#353 - 2013-05-01 18:05:45 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
stuff


You've got to bear in mind that "500 man-hours per POS" an average. Some months you might get lucky and not have to defend your towers (as you stated), other months, it's non-stop defense fleets because some group of reds is trying to take over your space.

Yes, I can most definitely mine while waiting for a CTA (and hell, maybe we'll put in 500 man-hours and make 5b ISK Bear). As soon as that CTA goes up, and the fleet is putting in 500 man-hours of defense ... we're no longer talking about "just 500 man-hours"; but rather a total of 1,000 man-hours expended.

Tippia is saying that, with the following givens:

1. Ice mining takes 500 man-hours to make 5 billion ISK
2. POS defense takes (on average) 500 man-hours to pull off
3. You have a fleet of 250 people
4. your fleet has 2 hours available
5. a red fleet is inbound

you can do either one of

a) defend the POS OR
b) mine ice, and let the POS explode

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#354 - 2013-05-01 18:08:24 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



stuff




What part of having fleets of ships ready all the time is so hard for you to get?

Its the entire point of having a military force.



Uh what are you talking about that has to do with this topic?

You entered a conversation about passive incomes versus active incomes in regards to moon mining being a significant factor.

Not about having a military force.

What part of that did YOU not get?


You have spent most of the thread talking about the defence of towers. This has EVERYTHING to do with military matters.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#355 - 2013-05-01 18:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



stuff




What part of having fleets of ships ready all the time is so hard for you to get?

Its the entire point of having a military force.



Uh what are you talking about that has to do with this topic?

You entered a conversation about passive incomes versus active incomes in regards to moon mining being a significant factor.

Not about having a military force.

What part of that did YOU not get?


You have spent most of the thread talking about the defence of towers. This has EVERYTHING to do with military matters.



Negative. I have been talking about passive income versus income. From this thread and the one where it was the subject. I tried stopping Tippia here, and she did, then someone else took up the gauntlet, including yourself.

This topic, which I made sure to refresh and repeat my stance, had to do with industry as a whole, NOT just moon mining. That is only one facet. One that quite a few people wish to focus on.

I originally, and continually, will expand on the thread topic about how it's a matter of how people use the mechanic, not what the mechanic is designed to do.

Which we all know is the case in this game; the misuse of mechanics for personal gain (not exploit, but the whole "using a hammer as a screwdriver" factor).

In regards to the defense of towers, that idea alone does not belong in this thread because it isn't the defenders who benefit directly from that operation. Maybe indirectly since it can affect SRPs etc, but then, like I previously said... keeping only 1 iron in the fire is bad planning and poor management.

So again, byproducts are a non factor in regards to how players handle their duties to ensure null industry can work as well as it can, if we wish to speak of the mechanics side of things versus the meta game.

It doesn't matter how many man hours it takes, because the # of man hours will differ from many variables, ranging from your fleet to mine... numbers, composition, escalation tactics, scouting, location location location and of course productivity itself.

It doesn't just take 500 or 750 man hours to get 5bil. It CAN take that long. Doesn't mean you WILL get it, as proven in this thread.

This is why I focus so much on that formula being so missplaced and silly to use.

It's almost like saying all asteroids are equal.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#356 - 2013-05-01 18:30:16 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



Negative


I was literally replying to things you have been saying about tower defence.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#357 - 2013-05-01 18:33:34 UTC
Which I have been saying has nothing to do with the fact moon mining is a passive income that you can stack with active incomes.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#358 - 2013-05-01 18:43:54 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Which I have been saying has nothing to do with the fact moon mining is a passive income that you can stack with active incomes.


Great so 90% of your posts in this terrible thread are pointless. We can couple that with the other 10% of your poststhat are flat out wrong.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#359 - 2013-05-01 18:50:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Hi! I'm the kettle.


And I'm the pot.


I did, as they say, fix that for you.

Mr Epeen Cool
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#360 - 2013-05-01 18:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Which I have been saying has nothing to do with the fact moon mining is a passive income that you can stack with active incomes.


Great so 90% of your posts in this terrible thread are pointless. We can couple that with the other 10% of your poststhat are flat out wrong.



You can believe whatever you want sir.

Especially considering my averages seem to be better than yours.

But hey, way to be a part of the conversation!

EDIT- I might also remind you to start reading thread over, including the title of the thread.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.