Crime & Punishment

comon kane,
ur saying someone who does the exact same things as "ur friends" does,
but in another part of space changes the equation on beeing a pirate ?

thats like saying only ppl who attacked sea wessels in the carribien where pirates,
because those are the ones history knows best ?

a pirate is deemed on hes crimes, not where he comits them...

yea, i must have missed that CCP memo...

I had good reply to this thread written but it's disappeared somehow.
The summary of it was:
You can't call someone a pirate if they AWOX, there is a reason that people use the word AWOXer. the same goes for a corporation thief. They are called robbers, not pirates.
Some of the things the guys who claim to be pirates are saying such as high sec pilots time being more interesting because of their presence really do have a warped perception of their own contribution to the game. It's not the case in the slightest.

Pirates exist on the high seas(low sec and below), and not in the shallow waters or habours (highsec).

Of course the AWOXers have to get a kick out of using an alt to awox defenseless high-sec players else why would they do it? Each to their own, but I am glad that Monk didn't get elected because there are so many other candidates that would be able to pick up gameplay aspects that wouldn't just focus on the destruction of many players that don't want to enter low sec/null sec for whatever reason. They need to respect that and not try to force their own beliefs on those pilots just because they have bestowed their own righteous crusade to gain respect for what they believe they are, which is a high sec pirate. In fact they are not a high sec pirate they are robbers or AOWXers there is a difference. AWOXer King if you really want to be called a king.

Wait? Is software piracy just hacking done from a boat then??

Or are we trying to say that you are not a criminal until you have been apprehended and had a "most wanted" score attached to you?

And if we want to get really really technical we have to then bring up the question of privateering and writs and all that silly sea lawyering. (Maybe a new skill to allow CCP reaction times to be slowed?)

At the end of the day the act of "piracy" as defined in modern terms is far more broad than people are trying (desperately) to make it. As far as eve goes the term pirate has been spread by the population at large to include a number of activities that the eldest wouldn't always agree belong. But it is the players who have set the term up.

Hell fire the damn tutorial tries to tell people that pirates can and will shoot you for no reason other than name calling. It seems the only way to solve this is to make the tutorial "missions" far more realistic to real game play.

Far more interesting to really have to look at what someone is saying prior to clicking next. Give the missions real consequences for not looking for the traps.

So you went out to a hidden jump gate just because someone with a badge said so? What are you stupid? Etc etc.

Let the first day of the game set folks up for it. And screen out the folks who believe that they can't be bothered.

If we want to say that piracy doesn't belong in hisec then shouldn't that include NPC rats as well? So no missions then?

I think it boils down to the basic issue of game play. If we want to say hisec is the city of eve then it would be (should be?) just as boring as living and working in any other city. If you drive your Lexus through the slums and are acting stupid then guess what you might well get shot. What's even worse odds are the police will do little to nothing about it.

If we want to encourage exciting pew pew play and discourage hisec "mechanic abuse" then we have to make it worth while for everyone to be out of hisec and the city.

I take your point on the software piracy, that is indeed a term that is used in real life.
Maybe they could think of something else to call the NPCs then? Not all NPCs are 'pirate' rates, some are faction based too let's not forget. Yes some cities of EVE could be regarded as being located in high-sec, take Jita and the other trade hubs as an example. There are suicide gankers there and the police to catch them for what they do and they are punished. If you want to talk about slums in EVE then places like Rancer would spring to mind, but you can't say that high-sec contains slums. Low sec is more appropriate for that label because there are no police, as you say if you roll up to low sec in your lexus you are likely to run into trouble. But not in the middle of the high sec city where the police will take action is you do anything to that lexus.

also your final sentence links to what I had already replied to and it is regarding the AWOXers and robbers warped perception of what they think they do for high sec. If a high sec dweller experiences these things then how are they going to thin it's better to leave high sec. If high sec is supposed to be the safest place, then why would they leave to a less safe environment if they are going to experience worse grief. No, they will go to low-sec or null sec if they want something different. Since it's a sandbox you are entitled to do what you do because the mechanics allow it for your alts and whatevers, but it's wrong to assume that high sec players need this forced upon them. If it's a sandbox they are welcome to play as they like just as you are. It doesn't mean that your playstyle should be encouraged over another though.

yay, caught up with the thread. Okay, a few things:

- Monk isn't a one-trick pony. He's been really into this safari/awox thing for a while, but that's mostly due to the state of other methods of boat violence in highsec. When I signed on with Monk two years ago, we were a wardec corp. And then we did incursion griefing. Then CCP gutted wardecs and there were 8-10 months of decshield and other terrible things that utterly destroyed the highsec wardec community. We've done suicide ganking, low/null roams--god those were boring--and scamming. He's interested in finding anyway he can to do bad things in Eve, including "real piracy" as some people claim it. Read the blog he and I share, there are stories there about lots more than just shooting greens.

- Piracy is too broad a term to apply to just one narrow set of behavior in low/null. Suicide ganking is most certainly piracy, as is wardeccing corporations. Those come with inherent risks. Also, sec status is irrelevant to pirate status, as it can be recovered.

- There are several members of the Belligerent Undesirables community who are actively looking for ways to stretch our rule-bending gameplay into lowsec, especially into FW. I've seen some very creative ideas popping up in the past week and look forward to more lowsec residents doing the work.

This I feel I must agree with. Ideally we need all visions represented. However, with eve that is nearly impossible. The arbitrary sec status requirement aside blue shooting is as dastardly as corp theft to some. And mining is as worthless as mission running to others. And both sides want the other stopped from killing their game play.

So just how do we break down every player into a csm of (comparatively) tiny size?

I don't have a clue.

But I would start by redressing the balance of the safe play style. The pirates have been hit and hit again with wiffle bats and as a result most of us would agree the benefit has been to the weak and the lazy. So a csm to help push the pendulum back would then make sense.

All that aside the game play should reflect the first rule of eve at all times. Anything you undock is space dust and bringing it home is a bonus. Eve is glorious for its "real" consequences. As such casual game play, in my opinion, is the needed sacrifice as the cost of admission. Let more aspects s of the game reflect that and Eve will only get better.

(This message has not been paid for by any candidate for CSM)

I thought the EVE learning curve was bad, but trying to keep the pirate requirements straight is impossible. I think it may be helpful to codify the rules. Let me see if I have these right:

1. A pirate must maintain a sec status of -5 or lower.
2. A pirate must live and operate in lowsec.
3. A pirate's negative sec status must have been earned in lowsec. Anywhere else would be an exploit of game mechanics.
4. Highsec suicide ganking is not a permitted activity for pirates, because (a) it is too easy, (b) it is an exploit, and (c) it is in highsec.
5. A pirate may rob, but he may not steal. A real pirate knows the difference.
6. Pirates must restrict their activities to those allowed by intended game mechanics. Real pirates know what those are.
7. Meta gaming is dishonorable.
8. Emergent gameplay is dishonorable.
9. Use of game features that have existed for less than two years may jeopardize true pirate status.
10. Killing a five-year-old blue is unfair and strictly not allowed.
11. Killing a week-old newbie in an Iteron is fine, as long as it happens in lowsec.
12. Wardecs are dishonorable because they allow PVP to occur in highsec.
13. Safari, Awox, and scamming are dishonorable because they unfairly exploit stupidity.
14. Failure to honor a ransom is not dishonorable, as long as it happens in lowsec.
15. Bumping a freighter is dishonorable unless done to keep the freighter from leaving lowsec.

I'm sure I have neglected a few - please add additional rules as applicable.

There i fixed it for you mr. i'm a pirate but i live in carebear space.