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Reiisha
#41 - 2013-04-30 09:08:16 UTC
Max Teranous wrote:
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash wrote:
mkint wrote:
The "EVE has sound?" meme is a meme because *competent* players turn it off. Players who actually fleet up and participate and create memes. We turn it off because *any* sound will disrupt fleets. We turn it off because so much of EVE works well as a passive game while you're doing something else, listening to something else, watching something else. And when we experiment to see "hmm, what's changed in the past 5 years since I turned the sound off?" we find it's grating and obnoxious after roughly 30 seconds.

Hiding critical information in sound is like hiding critical information in menus 4 levels deep. Actually, no, that's literally what it is. Making EVE require sound will be antagonizing your players who don't suck, who interact, who spend the most hours with the game.


who said anything about hiding critical information? I only mentioned giving "hints" in the sound of what might come - you might as well play without the graphics then, in a text based universe if you really want to create your own stories.

you clearly didn't get my point.

my point is that it still won't be a disadvantage to turn it on, but a slight advantage to keep it on and that sound will give you better gameplay.


I think mkint's point is that *any* slight advantage of using sound by definition means that not using sound puts you at a disadvantage, when compared to those using sound. this is a PVP interactive game after all, so any advantage to one group disadvantages the other group as they are directly interacting.

Personally i'm cool with adding better sound stuff, but i understand where mkint is coming from also.


That's a slippery slope.

Should all the graphics be removed so people trying to play eve on a phone via teamviewer or whatever won't be at a disadvantage?

Should all keyboard shortcuts be removed so people who are only playing with the mouse won't be at a disadvantage?

Should the radial menu be removed so people who are only playing with right click menu's won't be at a disadvantage?




Turning off sound is your choice, it's not necessary by any stretch of imagination. Please do not force your choice on everyone.

There is a volume control in EVE. Instead of turning it off and on, try putting it at 10% or something. In my experience this is more than enough to hear everything you need or want to hear without drowning out comms chatter.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#42 - 2013-04-30 09:27:03 UTC
Here is how you can have game sound without it interfering with voice comms:

  • Play game sound through decent quality speakers while voice comms are on headphones. This allows positional discernment since comms come from inside your head, game sound comes from outside,
  • Have other sounds quieted when your voice comms is sending or receiving


If game sound interferes with voice comms, you are doing it wrong (and you are probably incompetent).

Day 0 Advice for New Players
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2013-04-30 10:00:52 UTC
Really the only time I have a problem with this is with the jump drive sound, since it's so much louder than pretty much any other sound in the game.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-04-30 10:13:00 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:

"Nobody is playing EVE with sound enabled."

Speak for yourself. I play with sound on and I find some of the informational sounds quite useful.

But yes, CCP should consider that not everyone can hear (we have at least one deaf guy in alliance) and they should not have a disadvantage because of new sound developments. Also having two clients open is a pain. I usually disable audio on one of them.

Ninja bug report: When I disable sound in both clients and then later try to re-enable sound in one, it often does not work. The check-box is set, but the sound stays disabled.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-04-30 10:13:48 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Ninja bug report: When I disable sound in both clients and then later try to re-enable sound in one, it often does not work. The check-box is set, but the sound stays disabled.

Confirming this happens to me as well.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lady Areola Fappington
#46 - 2013-04-30 10:16:50 UTC
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I've gotta say, I agree with Vera up there. Eve is one of the few games that doesn't force you to be able to hear well to play. I lost a lot of my hearing from a roadside bomb in Iraq, and it still amazes me how much you really depend on audio for subconscious clues and such.

CCP, I hope you can keep EVE "deaf friendly", while still giving cool new features.


I never said that.
EVE is still deaf friendly. what I am saying is that sound in EVE will be a "good thing" to have on instead of something people joke about or turn off because they see it as useless.
Having sound on should be an advantage and not a piece of something annoying. playing with sound off should be a choice to take, but have in mind that you then remove a layer of information.

the fact that some people are deaf and that some are blind, is really not something we can build a game around, we can take these individuals into our considerations about make our game friendly to them, but certainly that shouldn't ruin it for the majority of people who can hear and see perfectly well.


Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything to be built around an "edge case" such as disability. CCP has always been great about presenting information via multiple senses. I don't know if that's been intentional or not, but it's a great way to have set up the game.

In fact, with the new chirps and beeps, a blind friend of mine has been able to get into EVE, so kudos for that one, sound team!

As long as you get the vital information across (which EVE does quite well), I'm all for you guys making any sorts of extras others can experience and have fun with. Hope you guys can dev up something cool, good luck!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2013-04-30 10:19:50 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I've gotta say, I agree with Vera up there. Eve is one of the few games that doesn't force you to be able to hear well to play. I lost a lot of my hearing from a roadside bomb in Iraq, and it still amazes me how much you really depend on audio for subconscious clues and such.

CCP, I hope you can keep EVE "deaf friendly", while still giving cool new features.


I never said that.
EVE is still deaf friendly. what I am saying is that sound in EVE will be a "good thing" to have on instead of something people joke about or turn off because they see it as useless.
Having sound on should be an advantage and not a piece of something annoying. playing with sound off should be a choice to take, but have in mind that you then remove a layer of information.

the fact that some people are deaf and that some are blind, is really not something we can build a game around, we can take these individuals into our considerations about make our game friendly to them, but certainly that shouldn't ruin it for the majority of people who can hear and see perfectly well.


Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything to be built around an "edge case" such as disability. CCP has always been great about presenting information via multiple senses. I don't know if that's been intentional or not, but it's a great way to have set up the game.

In fact, with the new chirps and beeps, a blind friend of mine has been able to get into EVE, so kudos for that one, sound team!

As long as you get the vital information across (which EVE does quite well), I'm all for you guys making any sorts of extras others can experience and have fun with. Hope you guys can dev up something cool, good luck!


we'll see. :)
Sound in EVE has come a long way over the past year and we are trying to take it further, but it's gonna take a while to get everything in place :)

Bjørn Jacobsen | Deceased Audio Designer | EVE Online & EVE : Valkyrie | CCP Games | I might be slow at replying - but at least I'm bad at football.
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-04-30 10:22:38 UTC
mkint wrote:
The "EVE has sound?" meme is a meme because *competent* players turn it off. Players who actually fleet up and participate and create memes. We turn it off because *any* sound will disrupt fleets. We turn it off because so much of EVE works well as a passive game while you're doing something else, listening to something else, watching something else. And when we experiment to see "hmm, what's changed in the past 5 years since I turned the sound off?" we find it's grating and obnoxious after roughly 30 seconds.

Hiding critical information in sound is like hiding critical information in menus 4 levels deep. Actually, no, that's literally what it is. Making EVE require sound will be antagonizing your players who don't suck, who interact, who spend the most hours with the game.

Another "speak for yourself". I play EVE for 10 years almost, I participate in fleets and I still use EVE sound when I fleet up.
If you can't handle sound and comms at the same time, it may be your personal problem.

There are sounds that tell you about certain events in game already. Low shields, low cap etc. If you chose to ignore this feature, it's your choice. Just don't brag about being more competent than people who like to use the tools they are given.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#49 - 2013-04-30 10:22:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Ninja bug report: When I disable sound in both clients and then later try to re-enable sound in one, it often does not work. The check-box is set, but the sound stays disabled.

Confirming this happens to me as well.


Same here, the impression I got was it's due to sharing the same client install. Restarting the client seems to bring it back.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#50 - 2013-04-30 10:25:39 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
mkint wrote:
The "EVE has sound?" meme is a meme because *competent* players turn it off. Players who actually fleet up and participate and create memes. We turn it off because *any* sound will disrupt fleets. We turn it off because so much of EVE works well as a passive game while you're doing something else, listening to something else, watching something else. And when we experiment to see "hmm, what's changed in the past 5 years since I turned the sound off?" we find it's grating and obnoxious after roughly 30 seconds.

Hiding critical information in sound is like hiding critical information in menus 4 levels deep. Actually, no, that's literally what it is. Making EVE require sound will be antagonizing your players who don't suck, who interact, who spend the most hours with the game.

Another "speak for yourself". I play EVE for 10 years almost, I participate in fleets and I still use EVE sound when I fleet up.
If you can't handle sound and comms at the same time, it may be your personal problem.

There are sounds that tell you about certain events in game already. Low shields, low cap etc. If you chose to ignore this feature, it's your choice. Just don't brag about being more competent than people who like to use the tools they are given.


Some people react better to visual clues, others to aural.

I very rarely realise how low my shields are prior to hearing the warning sound What?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-04-30 10:30:50 UTC
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Ninja bug report: When I disable sound in both clients and then later try to re-enable sound in one, it often does not work. The check-box is set, but the sound stays disabled.

Confirming this happens to me as well.


Same here, the impression I got was it's due to sharing the same client install. Restarting the client seems to bring it back.

Actually I should clarify that it happens to me with a single client open as well.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#52 - 2013-04-30 11:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicen Jehr
I too wish that the volume of background noise in stations was independently adjustable from gates/wormholes/other world sounds. I often leave my client open for hours while I work on something else and the station noise is unbearable. And your sliders are still from 2003 so it is a fairly substantial PITA to adjust those levels. So I never have world sounds turn on, I am probably missing out on a bunch of them!

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
mkint
#53 - 2013-04-30 13:04:27 UTC
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash wrote:
mkint wrote:
The "EVE has sound?" meme is a meme because *competent* players turn it off. Players who actually fleet up and participate and create memes. We turn it off because *any* sound will disrupt fleets. We turn it off because so much of EVE works well as a passive game while you're doing something else, listening to something else, watching something else. And when we experiment to see "hmm, what's changed in the past 5 years since I turned the sound off?" we find it's grating and obnoxious after roughly 30 seconds.

Hiding critical information in sound is like hiding critical information in menus 4 levels deep. Actually, no, that's literally what it is. Making EVE require sound will be antagonizing your players who don't suck, who interact, who spend the most hours with the game.


who said anything about hiding critical information? I only mentioned giving "hints" in the sound of what might come - you might as well play without the graphics then, in a text based universe if you really want to create your own stories.

you clearly didn't get my point.

my point is that it still won't be a disadvantage to turn it on, but a slight advantage to keep it on and that sound will give you better gameplay.

If I could play with only brackets, I would. :P

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-04-30 13:10:34 UTC
+1, this sound is breaking my mojo!
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash
C C P
C C P Alliance
#55 - 2013-04-30 14:13:52 UTC
Nicen Jehr wrote:
I too wish that the volume of background noise in stations was independently adjustable from gates/wormholes/other world sounds. I often leave my client open for hours while I work on something else and the station noise is unbearable. And your sliders are still from 2003 so it is a fairly substantial PITA to adjust those levels. So I never have world sounds turn on, I am probably missing out on a bunch of them!


Yea. world sounds and many of the other things are a bit tricky.
Don't expect to get full control of each sound and be able to set individual volumes, you will always have groups.

BUT! here is the problem on our end, the audio engine and a few other things have some problems because of the old system, mixed with new systems, code wrappers and API's --> so there are a few deep down code things that needs to be fixed before something like this can be done - I know it sounds like easy to do, but then we would shoot ourselves in the foot if we did so, and we are trying to create a whole new re-writing of the audio system, it will on the other hand take a while to get fully operational.

There are many things here that needs adjusting, preferably every player would play with the same settings, but they don't - and we are aware. :)

Bjørn Jacobsen | Deceased Audio Designer | EVE Online & EVE : Valkyrie | CCP Games | I might be slow at replying - but at least I'm bad at football.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-04-30 14:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
In the mind of CCP:

Give audio hint -> softly push players towards enabling sound (and reward those players who have learned to distinguish the hints).

In reality:

Odyssey includes audio hints -> activate sound -> "**** this ****" -> turn sound off and monitor active file handles to see what sound file the EVE client is playing on mouse-over, print the "hint" in big letters on my screen.

(yeah, the audio is probably all in one big resource file... I am too lazy to check and I don't care as it doesn't affect the point I am trying to make;

nope I am not telling you that you should violate the EULA I am saying that people will violate the EULA rather than use sound. Why? mostly because they are running several clients and using sound with multiple clients is completely unfeasible.)

.
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash
C C P
C C P Alliance
#57 - 2013-04-30 14:44:23 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
In the mind of CCP:

Give audio hint -> softly push players towards enabling sound (and reward those players who have learned to distinguish the hints).

In reality:

Odyssey includes audio hints -> activate sound -> "**** this ****" -> turn sound off and monitor active file handles to see what sound file the EVE client is playing on mouse-over, print the "hint" in big letters on my screen.

(yeah, the audio is probably all in one big resource file... I am too lazy to check and I don't care as it doesn't affect the point I am trying to make;

nope I am not telling you that you should violate the EULA I am saying that people will violate the EULA rather than use sound. Why? mostly because they are running several clients and using sound is completely unfeasible.)


you seem quite interested in the subject, for a person who doesn't care. :D

Bjørn Jacobsen | Deceased Audio Designer | EVE Online & EVE : Valkyrie | CCP Games | I might be slow at replying - but at least I'm bad at football.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-04-30 14:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash wrote:


you seem quite interested in the subject, for a person who doesn't care. :D

I care about sound.

I don't care about finding out how I could monitor what sounds the EVE client is playing. For my argument it is only important that there will be some way.

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-04-30 14:51:19 UTC
Actually in case it didn't come across in my post above:

I really like that your idea opens the possibility for players to become experienced in a somewhat fuzzy problem (the fuzzier you make it the better).

For someone who does probing for the first time the sound clues might be meaningless but for someone who has collected a lot of experience they might be very valuable. That's a great concept (and you deserve massive kudos for it) ... if only there weren't bad people(TM) and if it didn't require me to turn on sound (((

.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-04-30 14:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
CCP WhiteNoiseTrash wrote:
Personally I would like to make the game audio - AFK friendly. I'm not saying that I want people to play AFK necessarily, but I would like players to be able to walk away from the computer and then just by listening, be able to tell when they need to react or not and come back to the action.


You know what would be awesome. A sound that happens when somone enters local. Now this wouldn't be practical for hi-sec, but for low and null it would be very useful. Make it togable for when you want it to happen.

Though why I afk in low and null is beyond me.

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