Science & Industry

Khanid will likely have low-sec ice. The list of clear icicle containing systems they gave was for high security only.

That said, it continues to amaze me that people mine their own fuel.

You're exactly right, it is a PERSONAL problem. The same way me Plexing or Paying for MY account is a PERSONAL problem.

You also have a PERSONAL problem, trying to force your opinion on others and influence the way they choose to play!

I use my skill how I want to my betterment or detriment. I determine the way I play. I'll adjust. Narrow and Boring it may be to you, is not how I view it.

How about you stop being condescending to people just because they dont play how you would like them too. Thats another PERSONAL problem of yours i see.

It's clear to anyone that's been around for a while: CCP has as much as stated that they want more people in null, and they STRONGLY encourage group activities. With every passing year this game becomes less and less welcome to solo players. Even solo activities like exploration are starting to get nerfed (for example, this stupid snatch-and-grab thing being explored now), and direct combat being actively encouraged (removal of "safe" mining activities in Grav sites).

Space is very clearly delineated: high sec for solo and casual gamers, low sec for the adventurous types to dabble in when interested, and null for people that don't mind being fodder for larger epeen seekers. That's cool, whatever works. I'm more often in low sec than high these days, just because I happen to like occassional in-your-face activities and annoying people. Did nullsec and the emoraging FCs, have zero interest to go back. Have multiple towers in high sec for when I'm more interested in thinking than playing Call Of Duty Spaceships version.

But from my perspective CCP is really pushing to make EveO more Call of Duty (FPS)-esque. That's awesome for them and the players that like FPS games. But it will continue to be a declining road for those that choose solo gameplay. It really is kinda obvious.

And no, none of you can have my stuff. It'll be trash-canned on fraps if and when I choose to move on.

This isn't necessarily true. I am a pretty strictly solo player, and I've been at it since 2005. I'm usually pretty nonplussed by complaints that they're making it impossible to be a solo player. I can't think of a single expansion that ever had any tangible detrimental effect on my gameplay.

The worst, to date, was Incarna. It didn't hurt me, it just completely lacked anything of interest.

First time I have agreed with you. I usually see you as a troll poster. We likely are agreeing for different reasons though.

The quantity available in hi sec will be "limited". Question is how this "limited" is calculated. In devblog they mentioned that it will be enough to cover 80% of the empire towers need, if I understood correct. Assuming that every belt is mined out instantly the second it spawns.

As far as I'm aware then for all practical purposes only caldary towers are used hi sec. So I guess for a start its bad day to fly caldary capital ship ;) Yeah, sure you can find handful of other races towers up in hi sec as well.

What this means, longer term that price will stabilize at the level which corresponds to the null sec mining. That is approx 20 mil / h per account. I dont see reason to assume that the upcoming resource redistribution patch changes that significantly after the transit turbulence is over and prices settle somewhere. Null sec ice variants hold 350 isotopes per block (while hi sec versions hold 300), a max skilled Skiff with Roqual boost will mine 110 block per hour after thew 50% reduction is cykle time resulting in 38500 isotopes. Ignoring, for the sake of simplicity for the moment the minor amount of liquid ozone, heavy water and strontsium present that would mean price of approx 520 isk per unit for that max skilled Skiff to get 20 mil /h.

I should also add that I smell significant drop coming in the price of liquid ozone - as thats mainly coming from dark glitter which nets 1000 units of it per block. Dark glitter is atm sitting at approx 20 mil / h mark.

Anyway, while its a price increase in isotopes, the increase is not something I would consider the end of the world. Hi sec mining, in general, however, will get somewhat less luractive bcos of the significcant amount of low ends starting to come from the null sec. Yes they are bulky - at first. However, with the increased number of manufacturing slots mineral compression will be easier in null. I can reach as high as 1:30 compression ratio with select few mods, roghly 1:25 ratio if you are after better mix of minerals for building things. That means that a single JF run can carry max about 10.8 million cubic meters (~11 regular freighter loads) of minerals. You can (and its done on regular basis) compress Titans worth of minerals into roughly 3 JF loads. With the significant increase in low end production in null I would expect the null to change from importing low end into exporting low ends.

But we will see how rthings turn out

check your maths buddy. it's 122.9 blocks with an orca.

with a rorqual it's 143.9

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73098 double the numbers of ice in that dev blog, and you shall see.

Come to think of it, the only reason I can see why an ice-miner would cry about these changes are if they are botters. Ice prices are going to go up, after all.

Anyone complaining confirmed for a botter.

as a player in eve for almost 7 years now (with some breaks in between) it seems to me like it was posted earlier.
some people want to mine, others look down on them "playing for slave wages".. still, someone needs to mine for everything that people want to use / fly / pew pew.

same with fuel. that was probably the most stupid sentence I read in a while, something like ".. dont understand why you mine your own fuel..." .. well, someone HAS to mine the ice for that fuel mate.. so why not cut out the middleman if you have the time ??

not every player rates his activities on a pure ISK / H ratio.

I apreciate the intention of CCP to help players establish an industrial foothold in 0.0 and lowsec. BUT, (as stated before) as long as the bigger alliances and corps who "own" this space start caring about their own miners , things will never change.

as long as epeen and elite monster pvp players see no value to help their corp mates mine by providing security and intel and prefer hotdropping frigates and grinding sov, no serious miner wil risk his fleet of barges.

as long as industrial capacity of 0.0 can be locked up and blocked by a handful hardcore industrialists, doing all in High will just be the better option. lets be honest...even with the max upgrades on outposts one industrial heavyweight will use almost all slots on his own...I am talking 3 toon, max slot player accounts here something of which there are quiet a few out there)

as long as taking sov of systems and doing NOTHING with that space except holding it has value for alliances, why should they even bother ?

these changes are not bad. but who really benefits from them ?? defintily not the small corps, not the single players who enjoy mining in their 3-toon setup. (btw: mining is not antisocial.. those miners chat and talk and all that all day.. you just dont care about them to notice´and are in the wrong channel)

its the large entities with so much "safe" space that they can rat , mine and mine ice as much as they want and need. and who have the ressources to assemble the most efficient setup all the time, every time (meaning all TZ and locations).

even the the whole Moon / T2 setup and "rebalancing" does in fact nothing IF a large entity already controls enough moons / space. if they have enough access to moons already, pure chance to have enough access to those new moon materials is already big enough.

so. its a good change against botting ice. yay. its a great change f you dare enough to mine in low / null. yay. but if losing an orca and two barges sets you back almost 3 months of playing time (isk / plex wise) than these changes do nothing for you.

it might even out and the results might not be as drastic as some predict. but it is definitly not a change that makes EVE more attractive to small entities and corps and solo players.

WOW, A lot of BS and tears in this thread.

lets get some facts straight,

This is not about forcing anyone into low or null sec. If they want to push players into low and null they would have to nerf the hell out of ganking or watch EVE die. It is not about forcing anyone to do anything. It is about providing incentives for players currently in high sec to want to go to null. Not force you, but make you want to go.

Sure, many carebears will never leave high sec. They do not have to if they do not want to. But those that do will have to opportunity to make more isk. Higher risk, higher reward, is that not how it should work?

Fozzie said high sec will only be capable of supplying 80% of the ice currently needed. That means 20% at least will need to be mined in null sec. why is this a problem? This is 80% of all the ice needed for the entire game. Far more than 20% of the ice products used in game are used in null sec. I have not seen the numbers, but If I had to guess, I would say currently far more than 20% of the ice in game is mined in null sec.

When I lived in null sec Dark Glitter was worth over 400,000 isk per block. It has the highest content of Liquid Ozone. in fact all the null sec ice variations have at least 10 times the LO as any of the high sec ICE. LO is the highest demand ICE product. There are as many if not more online POSes in low and Null as there are in high sec. Plus every ship with a jump drive needs ICE products for fuel. Roquals although not widely used consume ICE products when compressing. Siege modules consume Stront. I would say closer to 50% of the ICE products consumed in the game are consumed in low and null sec. So why should all that ice come from high sec. Personally I think if anything, 80% from high sec is to high. But this requires all ICE belts to be mined dry every 3-4 hours. I doubt that will happen. A balance will be maintained.

As I said before this is not about forcing high sec players to go into low and null sec. But what it will do is force null sec alliances to accept that they need industrial players to survive. Alliances that do nothing but mine moons and PVP will soon be a thing of the past. While alliances that encourage and support industrial players to come out to null sec will become the new dominant forces. PVPers will still be the backbone of every null sec alliance, but having an industrial branch will be far more necessary than it was before.

My only complaint, as many others have also stated, is about the changes to scanning down the hidden belts. Currently anyone can sneak in a cov-ops ships with a probe launcher and scan down those sites fairly easily. But it takes a conscious decision to do that. With the changes any ship passing through can locate them with the onboard scanner, this makes them no more safe than the static belts. There is a reason nobody mines in the static belts. It is not safe enough. What makes hidden belts safe enough is that potential gankers need to drop another high slot module for a probe launcher if they want to gank the miners. Many do not bother. How many null sec roaming fits have you seen that include a probe launcher? This change alone could nullify all the other positive changes. there is no need to encourage conflict in null sec, conflict will come on its own when the number of players living there goes up. More players per system means more spys, more fighting over resources, and opportunity for deals to be made and broken. players working to ward being the best at what they do will have more competition.

I have every intention of moving back to null. The only reason I left was when my daughter was born, I had far less time to spend in game. Living in null sec takes more time and dedication than living in high sec. In high sec when you are gone for a while and come back all your stuff is still there. In null sec If you do not get on for a while you can come back to find your stuff is gone, or at an outpost you can no longer dock at.

Many players believe null sec industry is non existent. But nothing could be further from the truth. Even GOONS have industrial alts/players. Solar Citizens is basically an industrial focused alliance, supported by Solar fleet. And they are one of the biggest alliances. Null sec industry is everywhere, it just has not thrived under current conditions. I believe these changes in odyssey will help null sec industry to thrive. The Only change I would like to see, as stated above, and by many others, is leaving the hidden belts hidden, you must use scanner probes to find these. other wise only the largest, safest null sec alliances will mine in them.