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(Odyssey) Exploration Site Mechanics

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Telrei
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#481 - 2013-06-10 14:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Telrei
Seth Darkness wrote:
I don't really know why people whine so much on the new mechanic.

It's as real as it gets. You forcibly decompress a cargo bay in space. This makes the cargo fly out into space.
Also they made this a real profession, as you pretty much need max skills and ship bonuses so you have as much coherence to break the notes as possible.


If I am smart enough to fully hack their system to the core I am also smart enough to find the node to depressurize the cargo bay first.....
If they make it so that you can go one level deeper OR if you would need to find and destroy TWO cores I think that would greatly extinguish the flames.

First Core is the regular system core....
Second Core is the Pressurization Core.....

Do you just rush for the core or do you have the skills, luck, and time to hit both nodes successfully.....

Multiple people including myself have no qualms if they leave the loot spew in on failure. I could easily see this as at least somewhat of a compromise and working within the system

Quote:

loot should be comparable with hack complexity. Highest complexity should give the largest loot. Not to mention that these sites are ran by two people so this needs to be lucrative.



Thats another issue people have... seems to be primarily luck based...
hulka Puhkastu
L.S.C CORPORATION
#482 - 2013-06-10 15:24:46 UTC
There is to much luck involved. What pattern you get how many firewalls and so on. Even where the system nod is. It should be more where you use your knowlegde to gain acces.

(same with loot). And the seeding of different component is off. Like check the prices for small anc armor rep and the large one why the **** does the small on still cost 2 mill and the large 200k-300k. Because of the bpc for the large is overflooding the marked. No balance in the amount of how often that bpc drops. CCP should try to to fix first and mostly what and where different loot drop.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#483 - 2013-06-10 15:36:19 UTC
Whim Aqayn wrote:
And what exactly is stopping you from shooting them?


I don't think you have grasped the situation and you are completely missing the point.

Before Odyssey you had to run the sites in t2 or t3 cruisers and deal with rats. Now you can run the sites in cheap, disposable and hard to catch frigs with low skill char. Scan down the sites in easy mode due to the new probing system. No tank and dps necessary. Someone comes into the system or on dscan? Just cloak up or warp out. On to the next system keep on farming.

The occasional loss from gate camp or whatever will not hurt much and it's not gonna fix the market situation. Who gives a **** about their frig when it pays off from a single site? And what would i gain from fitting my ship for pvp and fast lock time, wasting my time trying to hunt down those frigs when i'm way better off farming the sites myself?
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#484 - 2013-06-10 15:41:30 UTC
The new scanner is flat out broken. Doesn't retain sites if you leave the system. If you launch probes the ability to system scan is sometimes thwarted requiring you to relaunch probes to get the sites on the overview.

The new probe layout itself makes it more difficult to go about my bizness. Even once I discovered the shift+alt aligning probes takes longer than before in order to get the right pattern. Are custom patterns in the future?

The minigame was interesting....once. Now that the patterns are clear it is just more of a drag (literally) than the old system.

Overall a general mess.
Diablo Aeglaeca
Dark Alliance
#485 - 2013-06-10 15:46:13 UTC
Logan LaMort wrote:
I liked it. I used to do exploration all the time, the probing bit was fun but the hacking/analyzing part? Ehh, completely braindead activity.

Also lots of opportunities to ninja other people's loot Pirate



the cans do not float around indefinitely, they last maybe 10-15 seconds or something like that. unless you are sitting right next to them when they blow the core or you gank them after they have seemingly succesfully looted something, you won't be ninja'ing squat.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#486 - 2013-06-10 15:49:07 UTC
I have a funny feeling that the veteran explorers are supposed to let the noobs do all the work, seeing that it's easier now, and then pop their ship and take the loot.

If you can fly a covops you can "probe jack" explorers. Just look for the cluster on a location, and then have your combat probes ready in tight formation. Warp in cloaked, let them play the mini game and all that, then once they are done, destroy them.


If we are still dealing with the CCP I know and remember, this might be the ultimate intention.


But I think we have to overcome the fear of somebody getting upset.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Diablo Aeglaeca
Dark Alliance
#487 - 2013-06-10 16:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Diablo Aeglaeca
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If CCP has made it so that you need a second person to scoop all the loot, then this probably means (if it's done properly) that it's designed to be decently profitable for two people (since they'd have to share it). Which means that while you won't get all the loot on your own, what you will be able to pick up should still be pretty profitable. In addition the twitch game really makes it so that you do need two people to grab everything. I kind of doubt there are many people who will be able to dual box and still do a decent job of grabbing stuff.

So no, I really doubt that this kills off exploration. Depending on loot chances and site design etc. exploration could be massively profitable like it's supposed to be without being a major isk faucet like missions and ratting are.

I'm looking forward to trying it out when it hits Sisi/Duality and depending on how good it is I might just end up doing this instead of ratting. It looks fun. It's new.


if it was supposed to involve more people then there should not have been removal of rats don't you think?
Diablo Aeglaeca
Dark Alliance
#488 - 2013-06-10 16:11:42 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I have a funny feeling that the veteran explorers are supposed to let the noobs do all the work, seeing that it's easier now, and then pop their ship and take the loot.

If you can fly a covops you can "probe jack" explorers. Just look for the cluster on a location, and then have your combat probes ready in tight formation. Warp in cloaked, let them play the mini game and all that, then once they are done, destroy them.


If we are still dealing with the CCP I know and remember, this might be the ultimate intention.


But I think we have to overcome the fear of somebody getting upset.




then you have to hope that their cargo was even worth the wait/work....because I'm telling you right now you'd be better off ganking a newb ratter or miner, just sayin
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#489 - 2013-06-10 16:16:01 UTC
Been doing this a bit and its great

Minigame is fun and can get intense. Blowing up a really valuable can is gutwrenching.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Lea Severy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#490 - 2013-06-10 16:16:45 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Lea Severy wrote:
and most importantly it should include as many people as possible.


You wouldn't say that if it was your niche of the game that was suddenly overrun by low skilled farmers ruining your income and the enjoyment that you got from doing an activity in the past.

And i have to disagree with you also when you say CCP thought this through. Obviously they haven't. Granted i myself was naive to think it wouldn't be so bad but then i don't get paid for developing this game nor have the experience of doing so for 10 years or get help from a professional economist to figure things out. A lot more people fight now over the same sparse ressources (by that i mean market demand, as quantity obviously is more then plenty now). Had they thought this through then an adequate amount of new ressources had been added to account for the number of new players doing it. The spatial atunments and a couple bpc's don't cut it.



Of course the market price will drop for many of the items you get from these sites - but ccp also added new rigs you can build, so eventually things will become balanced by themselves. Additionally the intact armor plates were always scarcely available on the market, hence the high price (they were at 20m a piece). A higher availability was maybe ccp's intention.

And about the "low skilled farmers" you mentioned: why would they ruin the joy of your activity? There are plenty of sites in EvE, if you get out of highsec, you won't be interrupted very often doing them in low or null. Yes, this change may have an impact on ones income compared to pre-odyssey, but there are many more variables to that, e.g. everyone wanting to check out the new mechanics. Just be patient, the market always reacts very strongly the first days after an expansion has been released. I for one get a load of valuable items and they sell for a good price, can't see a reason to complain about the income.
Diablo Aeglaeca
Dark Alliance
#491 - 2013-06-10 16:22:39 UTC
The ONLY thing I do not like about the changes to exploration are the timers on the scatter loot cans. By the time we get to harvest the bounty of our efforts, I feel that our loot has been earned already. Heres why:

Too much is determined by chance:
1.) Chance of system containing a site
2.) Chance of system containing a site you want
3.) scan down sites until you get a site you want to run
4.) hack the site-can
5.) chance of failing 1st attempt
6.) chance of failing a 2nd attempt, if you fail twice entire site-can explodes
7.) chance can contains valuable loot
8.) chance of not recovering loot sought after by twitch-timer based scatter loot system.
9.) only applies to low/null: chance of someone forcing you to cloak for too long after attempting to hack any site-can. this is included because if this happens to you, the whole site explodes and the site despawns.

Now imagine going through all that for a chance at a few hundred thousand isk, or a very narrow smaller chance at over 100mil loot.

My argument is that by the time you have blown the core, you have earned your loot. Just how combat sites have earned their chance an officer spawn or rare loot drop. when you pop it, loot drops, you collect, fair deal. You don't have to frantically chase explosion particles that loot like loot cans in the hopes of looting what you already earned.

it's not a fair system. Just make the expiration timers on the scatter-cans a few minutes. That is fair. This way CCP only needs to tweak a value in the coding and won't have to remove any fancy art/design/ animations etc. easy fix.

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#492 - 2013-06-10 16:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
you don't have to pick up all the (spew) cans to get all the loot. you can use a cargo scanner on the can before you hack it, look at what loot is in it, and then only pick those types. most of the time you're only picking data, materials or parts. scrap and equipment are nearly always junk. you have to prioritise when there''s two or more types to pick up

forums.  serious business.
Diablo Aeglaeca
Dark Alliance
#493 - 2013-06-10 16:44:05 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
you don't have to pick up all the (spew) cans to get all the loot. you can use a cargo scanner on the can before you hack it, look at what loot is in it, and then only pick those types. most of the time you're only picking data, materials or parts. scrap and equipment are nearly always junk. you have to prioritise when there''s two or more types to pick up



this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing.

I don't see how anyone can support a system that is not initiated profession wide/game wide. All I want is longer timers on the loot cans that's it. Even better to just have the option to open and close said loot for "x" amount of time so I can decide what loot I have room for, etc. Sometimes I want things I don't have room for, I don't get a chance at cargo space management with such short timers.

Ask yourself, why is it we have to even work with a system like this and everyone else does not? A few adjustments would make a lot of people happy and people already happy won't be any less happy. Shocked
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#494 - 2013-06-10 16:50:36 UTC
If you aren't making good money at this, you aren't doing it right.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#495 - 2013-06-10 16:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
you don't have to pick up all the (spew) cans to get all the loot. you can use a cargo scanner on the can before you hack it, look at what loot is in it, and then only pick those types. most of the time you're only picking data, materials or parts. scrap and equipment are nearly always junk. you have to prioritise when there''s two or more types to pick up



this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing.

I don't see how anyone can support a system that is not initiated profession wide/game wide. All I want is longer timers on the loot cans that's it. Even better to just have the option to open and close said loot for "x" amount of time so I can decide what loot I have room for, etc. Sometimes I want things I don't have room for, I don't get a chance at cargo space management with such short timers.

Ask yourself, why is it we have to even work with a system like this and everyone else does not? A few adjustments would make a lot of people happy and people already happy won't be any less happy. Shocked

One of the major objectives is to encourage bringing a friend.
If you don't want to bring a friend you need to do some prep work to ensure you have a high chance of getting the most valuable loot.

You don't earn it until it's in your hold, your point of view is more than a blit self entitled.

People have been begging for PVE content that they can't master simply by checking a web page that already has all the answers laid out for you... something unpredictable, something with some random elements, something where success isn't guaranteed.
If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#496 - 2013-06-10 17:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:
this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing.


I've not had much time to fully explore the mechanics of this but that doesn't sound right or if it is it sounds bugged, it should work as I described. could it be you've just misunderstood the category the item falls under?

http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution

forums.  serious business.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#497 - 2013-06-10 17:05:58 UTC
Lea Severy wrote:
And about the "low skilled farmers" you mentioned: why would they ruin the joy of your activity? There are plenty of sites in EvE, if you get out of highsec, you won't be interrupted very often doing them in low or null. Yes, this change may have an impact on ones income compared to pre-odyssey, but there are many more variables to that, e.g. everyone wanting to check out the new mechanics. Just be patient, the market always reacts very strongly the first days after an expansion has been released. I for one get a load of valuable items and they sell for a good price, can't see a reason to complain about the income.


Decent income from the sites = joy. Reward for risk = joy. Finding stuff that isn't served on a silver platter to everyone and his dog = joy. I'm not saying profession sites was this super exciting, dangerous thing to do before but any risk is almost eliminated now. You must be really stupid or sleepy to get caught and even then you only lose a cheap ship. It's not gonna set you back financialy or make you reconsider the risk you're willing to take.

You say yourself you will not get interrupted much in null. That's true. Everyone who still does it in hisec or low sec at this point is stupid. This will dawn on even more people soon. It's just too easy and almost risk free. And that's also why i don't believe in the "things will sort themself out"-mantra. Suppose the market crashes completely and everyone stops doing it for a while. Farmers will be out in full force again as soon as the market rebounds. It can only be fixed by raising the entry barrier to an appropriate level again. Sites that pay 100m on average (in a healthy economic situation) shouldn't be farmable by two month old alts in 70m ship. (or even t1 frig). Just compare this for a moment with the entry barrier to run l4 missions decently which pay way less.
Barron Hammerstrike
Medusa Nova Mining And Trade
#498 - 2013-06-10 17:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Barron Hammerstrike
I've done a few sites and lost a few ships since the update. This hardly happened before so if the goal was to increase gank opportunities for PvP'ers then success there and I'm cool with that. My problems are the following.

Scanning was challenging and is now too easy. Before the patch I could launch 5 probes max and felt that there was a real effort put into locating sites with the payoff being the opportunity to loot a data or archaeology site. True, getting the loot was pretty simple, but I always felt claiming the prize should be simple if locating it is difficult. Now it's just way too easy. I can find a site in maybe two scans and then have to spend too long clicking around playing mine sweeper to get the loot which spews out all over the place. It's kind of annoying and makes no sense because this feature is totally inconsistent with how loot works in the game.

The hack mini game is still just a bunch of pretty aimless clicking. I think claiming the reward shouldn't be more of the same. Also while I'm busy clicking around at random for the system core or whatever that should be all the time any would be gankers need to locate me. At least let me get the loot in one fell swoop so I can GTFO and not have to play "click the can".
Diablo Aeglaeca
Dark Alliance
#499 - 2013-06-10 17:14:45 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining.


I seem to remember only asking for a minor tweak to the scattered can timers, making them last a little longer. mostly for inventory management. I didn't imply anything else.
Charley en Cedoulain
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2013-06-10 17:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Charley en Cedoulain
I have to say that overall the new exploration has been immensely profitable, as I never had a chance to do exploration really pre-odyssey due to NPC's that I wasn't really skilled enough to kill with all in one exploration fits. The shooting cans don't really bother me as I use a cargo scanner and have figured out which cans hold which loot, though it does suck losing that 1 stack of t2 salvage because the last parts or material can dissappears before you can get it. My luck has been pretty good though.

The only thing that I asked be changed is:

When you defeat a restoration node, please please please make the other nodes go back down to normal. I lost a 200 million Faction True Sansha POS Module BPC because on both hacking attempts I had multiple resto nodes and the firewalls had ungodly amounts of virus coherence and strength at that point, so that is really my only point of contention and a lot of other players seems to share this same point as well because I had a few replies on reddit.com/r/eve about it as well.