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Wormholes

 
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About plans on Cap. Escalation nerf and "ovepopulated wormholes"

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CeNSeR
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2013-05-01 17:21:04 UTC
What is all the fuss about really.

As far as i can remember at the roundtable CCP never even mentioned nerfing anything until some guy's from a certain corp brought the subject up.

All they were doing was bouncing idea's around from the suggestions of players.

This thread reminds me of this scene from batman.

Linky
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-05-01 21:21:43 UTC
Meytal wrote:
And people need to remember something else: it's not instantly-applied ISK like bounties in Hisec. You have to haul the items to market to sell before you can be paid. Transmission Lost recently experienced this as they lost an Orca full of 15 bil in expedition loot.

thanks, forgot to mention that. a very good point.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Britta Nolen
Sama Guild
#143 - 2013-05-02 01:48:55 UTC
Apparently, ppl haven't seemed to figure out that Courier contracts are indeed the way to move sleeper loot & other ridiculously expensive items.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-05-02 02:09:22 UTC
Britta Nolen wrote:
Apparently, ppl haven't seemed to figure out that Courier contracts are indeed the way to move sleeper loot & other ridiculously expensive items.

personally i find chucking it in a 300k EHP proteus works fine.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Hoodie Mafia
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2013-05-02 15:28:33 UTC
Britta Nolen wrote:
Apparently, ppl haven't seemed to figure out that Courier contracts are indeed the way to move sleeper loot & other ridiculously expensive items.


Where can I find these pilots that will pick up my sleeper loot from my C5 Hole on contracts?
Onomerous
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-05-02 15:32:53 UTC
Casirio wrote:
yea lets nerf cap escalations when probably half of that 5% that lives in wspace live in high class space. lets spend our time nerfing something that isnt broken mean while null sec will still get passive moon income but us whlers will have to work as a team in expensive ships to earn isk to PVP in. if it aint broke dont fix it. spend your time fixing things that actually are broken, or look for new content and mechanics to encourage pvp. more pvp = more isk being blown up, if thats what ccp is worried about i would take that approach not nerfing the already mindleslly boring pve that i only do to afford my pvp ships.

oh and btw im broke as **** cus looking for targets > farming the 2 anoms currently in our system


You're missing the point... WH seem to be the one place that isn't broken badly and CCP is working to change it!!!! CCP seems to have lots of engineers: if it ain't broken, it doesn't have enough 'features'!!!!! ;)


tldr;
Leave WH alone before you screw them up, please.
Tragic Perspollis
The Night Crew
#147 - 2013-05-02 22:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tragic Perspollis
Elinea Ausene wrote:
I want to say as a wh carebear: I want to do pvp, but its terrible to get back into my 5 class system after pod) really I have to take a lot of time to go trough the scan, which I hate, only to come to my ships)



Besides space looks really bad. nebulaes in k-space are great, but about wh ccp has forgot.
Actually I cant understand why on the logo of odyssey are ruins of sleeper sites when noone want to bring something new into it)



I agree, wh space needs updated nebulas and I wish C4's got rid of that orange glow. Also some sites in C4's have blinding white clouds that just cause the game to lag and burn out my eyes. Whats up with that CCP...
Meytal
Doomheim
#148 - 2013-05-03 16:05:20 UTC
Tragic Perspollis wrote:
I agree, wh space needs updated nebulas and I wish C4's got rid of that orange glow. Also some sites in C4's have blinding white clouds that just cause the game to lag and burn out my eyes. Whats up with that CCP...

The clouds in deadspace locations are things that CCP thus far has refused to remove or allow us to disable them, because that would mean we can't appreciate the efforts by the Art team.

As far as W-space system colours, you've already noticed that C4s have a unique colour. All W-space systems have a unique colour.

Something you may not have noticed is that wormholes themselves are indicators of what kind of system lies beyond, as they reflect and distort both the current system colour and the target system colour. At a glance when you land on a K162, you can tell what kind of space just connected to you without jumping in.

Any changes should retain this ability, as it is one way for an experienced scanner to distinguish himself or herself apart from the novice, yet depends completely on personal "real" skills. IMO, the colours in W-space are fine.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#149 - 2013-05-03 18:44:39 UTC
The biggest thing to come out of the FanFest panel imo was that it was clear that CCP had no real clue that what they produced would be mapped out to the extent it has. I seem to recall Grayscale suggesting that capital escalations were intended to disincentivise using capitals in sites, when as we all know the reverse is the case.

I must admit that wormhole space has little mystery anymore, gone are the days where you'd jump into somewhere and have no idea where it would go. Nowadays people always know immediately where every wormhole leads to, Sleepers are only intimidating if you make a mistake, and capital escalations are so mindnumbingly predictable that people can and do just multibox them. The vibe at FF was that the lack of mystique about wormhole space now was a bad thing.

Unfortunately I think the horse has already bolted on grand changes to w-space. Greater variance in mass on wormholes (currently +/- 10%) was mooted, as well as randomised statics, but all ideas along these lines were met with disapproving moans.

W-space has effectively got to the stage where it is very similar to 0.0 sov space, with the only real difference being the mass limitations on a wormhole. This isn't even really a big issue since chain-collapsing is so simple. Home systems occupied by heavy hitters are fortresses. There's even coalitions that rival some of the 0.0 alliances in size, even though their goals are usually counter-productive - you can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it once, the recent evictions of PvP entities is not imo good for w-space.

I'd like to see some variety and mystery brought back to w-space, even if it isn't as blunt as playing with the mass variance on wormholes.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-05-03 19:52:46 UTC
Durzel wrote:

I'd like to see some variety and mystery brought back to w-space, even if it isn't as blunt as playing with the mass variance on wormholes.



That's why I've proposed a few radical changes that would at least start to shake things up.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Meytal
Doomheim
#151 - 2013-05-06 12:58:39 UTC
Durzel wrote:
I'd like to see some variety and mystery brought back to w-space, even if it isn't as blunt as playing with the mass variance on wormholes.

That's just it though. There still is an "unknown" aspect to things in W-space, but it will never be the same as when new content is added to the game ... which will not stay "new" and "unknown" for long. It'll be "new" and "unknown" only for as long as it takes people to document the changes.

Once change that has been suggested is to have more randomly connected short-lived wormholes between systems. Between ANY w-space system. This encourages movement and therefore encourages conflict. If you prioritize these new short-lived connections to occur between active systems -- pilots in space for last 30 minutes, npcs/ships/pods killed, jumps in last 30 minutes, etc -- you will bring together people who are active more so than you do with the regular statics (which should remain unchanged).

Another change I'd suggest is not spawning the K162 until entering the hole. It's just a little too easy now to have probes out and constantly scanning for that new incoming connection. If your new static spawns 100 AU on the other side of the system, you could initiate warp (spawning the K162 immediately) and the plexing fleet in the target system could have the hole scanned by the time you land. Being vigilant will still protect your fleet, but this means the potential attackers won't be penalized by RNG, only by their own preparedness (or lack thereof).

W-space IS different than Null, in that you can actually still hunt and stalk your prey, and the prey could have no idea you're there. Conversely, you can be watchful, but never certain, wondering just who is hunting and stalking you. In Null, just look in local. And don't decry the mass limitations and unstable connections between systems in general. It keeps life exciting to wonder if you're going to get the whole fleet in and take control of the hole, or just one ship in and die in a blaze of glory :)
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#152 - 2013-05-06 13:51:11 UTC
Meytal wrote:

Another change I'd suggest is not spawning the K162 until entering the hole. It's just a little too easy now to have probes out and constantly scanning for that new incoming connection. If your new static spawns 100 AU on the other side of the system, you could initiate warp (spawning the K162 immediately) and the plexing fleet in the target system could have the hole scanned by the time you land.


Warp to a BM or failing that celestial thats near the sig, short warp to WH? :P
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#153 - 2013-05-06 13:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Meytal wrote:
Another change I'd suggest is not spawning the K162 until entering the hole.


I'd rather they change it so the k162 signature spawns as soon as the origin signature spawns. This would mean a massive increase in connections because all wormholes in the game would always be visible from both sides. (The increase would in fact be so large that probably the wandering wormholes originating in k-space would need to be reduced in number.)

People could still close all their non-static connections and watch for new sigs, but new wormholes would spawn more often because the spawning would be mostly independent from player activity. This also means that when a new connection appears in your system, you couldn't be sure that someone just opened this hole by rolling their static; it might as well be a new automatic connection with no active players on the other side. Or not. If you don't catch a ship on d-scan you can never be sure. Buff to talented sneaks!

If every system always had all the connections of which most are now only "potential" (with their origin side non-activated), this sure would make w-space unpredictable once again :) And keep in mind that without players coming through all those open holes, you are not actually more likely to be attacked. It will just be harder to seal yourself off from the rest of w-space.

.
Meytal
Doomheim
#154 - 2013-05-06 15:15:12 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
If every system always had all the connections of which most are now only "potential" (with their origin side non-activated), this sure would make w-space unpredictable once again :) And keep in mind that without players coming through all those open holes, you are not actually more likely to be attacked. It will just be harder to seal yourself off from the rest of w-space.

M'mm, good counter-point :)
Closing your static and leaving the new one unvisited wouldn't make you safe anymore.

Hmm, random combination of the two, so you never have any idea why that K162 just spawned, or if someone came through youe unvisited static? :)
HTC NecoSino
ISEEU Corporation
Observatory Great Bear
#155 - 2013-05-06 15:30:49 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Meytal wrote:

Another change I'd suggest is not spawning the K162 until entering the hole. It's just a little too easy now to have probes out and constantly scanning for that new incoming connection. If your new static spawns 100 AU on the other side of the system, you could initiate warp (spawning the K162 immediately) and the plexing fleet in the target system could have the hole scanned by the time you land.


Warp to a BM or failing that celestial thats near the sig, short warp to WH? :P


Shhhhhh!
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2013-05-06 21:36:40 UTC
I think we should clear something up before this WH change (if such a myth were to pass) revs up. Randomization for its own sake is not positive. Nor is nerfing. Yes people are board with the predictability of sites, but note that screwing with wh mass times and the number of NPC's per site will not fix the boardom. It will create new annoyances just like the outdated POS systems do.

To better understand this issue lets ask ourselves why are whs so popular. It's not because they used to be unpredictable (though that was the original drive) It is because they are something to be conquered, though not in the null sov wars sense. Wh's can make you feel like you are a great explorer isolated from the known world. They are the perfect space in eve in this regard. That's the secret. Isolation. What do you feel when you jump into an uninhabited wh? You feel: wow. I have this stuff all to myself. It's an eirre and intense feeling as you plot your future in this wh. Now fast forward a year. You know all the site spawns and triggers by heart exactly how to find you wh and its sig strength. Your wh is mundane. So now we add in random spawns in sites. Time goes by and guess what? It's still mundane, just more random! So what makes exploration feel exploration-y?

Well you need scale. More solar systems, bigger solar systems that are fresh. Wh space is wayyy overpopulated in C1-3. Make new systems and the wh community is happy for a longgg time. But don't make theses systems the same. fill them with new content. Things that are really weird-- maybe these new systems arnet color coded or classed, maby no statics, maby the loot is higher and a trade off is no pos. Encourage people to do what they did when Apocrypha came out. I think people are thinking too small right now. a couple of years ago CCP said it wasn't doing any more so-called Jesus features. The reason said Jesus features were gimmicky was because they were short lived eye candy (incarna). Something of this scope that everybody could get behind and say "I really wan't this." Would be compleatly different. MAby multiple pieces of this dream would come out in the years to come, but right now people are saying "lets add some randomness and nerf cap escalations and then call it a day." We should get more than that.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Meytal
Doomheim
#157 - 2013-05-07 12:45:04 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Well you need scale. More solar systems, bigger solar systems that are fresh. Wh space is wayyy overpopulated in C1-3. Make new systems and the wh community is happy for a longgg time. But don't make theses systems the same. fill them with new content. Things that are really weird-- maybe these new systems arnet color coded or classed, maby no statics, maby the loot is higher and a trade off is no pos. Encourage people to do what they did when Apocrypha came out. I think people are thinking too small right now. a couple of years ago CCP said it wasn't doing any more so-called Jesus features. The reason said Jesus features were gimmicky was because they were short lived eye candy (incarna). Something of this scope that everybody could get behind and say "I really wan't this." Would be compleatly different. MAby multiple pieces of this dream would come out in the years to come, but right now people are saying "lets add some randomness and nerf cap escalations and then call it a day." We should get more than that.

Need something besides Sleeper drones. There are other ancient civilisations, with differing technology, differing architecture, etc. If the current W-space that we know (heh, the irony) is just a gateway to the rest of the universe, consider the possibilities. And it doesn't all have to be hostile nor just kill or be killed.
JoostSkywalker
Lionheart Investments
#158 - 2013-05-07 14:46:49 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
I think we should clear something up before this WH change (if such a myth were to pass) revs up. Randomization for its own sake is not positive. Nor is nerfing. Yes people are board with the predictability of sites, but note that screwing with wh mass times and the number of NPC's per site will not fix the boardom. It will create new annoyances just like the outdated POS systems do.

To better understand this issue lets ask ourselves why are whs so popular. It's not because they used to be unpredictable (though that was the original drive) It is because they are something to be conquered, though not in the null sov wars sense. Wh's can make you feel like you are a great explorer isolated from the known world. They are the perfect space in eve in this regard. That's the secret. Isolation. What do you feel when you jump into an uninhabited wh? You feel: wow. I have this stuff all to myself. It's an eirre and intense feeling as you plot your future in this wh. Now fast forward a year. You know all the site spawns and triggers by heart exactly how to find you wh and its sig strength. Your wh is mundane. So now we add in random spawns in sites. Time goes by and guess what? It's still mundane, just more random! So what makes exploration feel exploration-y?

Well you need scale. More solar systems, bigger solar systems that are fresh. Wh space is wayyy overpopulated in C1-3. Make new systems and the wh community is happy for a longgg time. But don't make theses systems the same. fill them with new content. Things that are really weird-- maybe these new systems arnet color coded or classed, maby no statics, maby the loot is higher and a trade off is no pos. Encourage people to do what they did when Apocrypha came out. I think people are thinking too small right now. a couple of years ago CCP said it wasn't doing any more so-called Jesus features. The reason said Jesus features were gimmicky was because they were short lived eye candy (incarna). Something of this scope that everybody could get behind and say "I really wan't this." Would be compleatly different. MAby multiple pieces of this dream would come out in the years to come, but right now people are saying "lets add some randomness and nerf cap escalations and then call it a day." We should get more than that.



More whs wont solve a thing. There is nothing wrong with people in whs. The more systems are inhabited the easssier we can get pvp. So i say no to more whsystems of the same allure.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2013-05-07 22:11:14 UTC
JoostSkywalker wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
I think we should clear something up before this WH change (if such a myth were to pass) revs up. Randomization for its own sake is not positive. Nor is nerfing. Yes people are board with the predictability of sites, but note that screwing with wh mass times and the number of NPC's per site will not fix the boardom. It will create new annoyances just like the outdated POS systems do.

To better understand this issue lets ask ourselves why are whs so popular. It's not because they used to be unpredictable (though that was the original drive) It is because they are something to be conquered, though not in the null sov wars sense. Wh's can make you feel like you are a great explorer isolated from the known world. They are the perfect space in eve in this regard. That's the secret. Isolation. What do you feel when you jump into an uninhabited wh? You feel: wow. I have this stuff all to myself. It's an eirre and intense feeling as you plot your future in this wh. Now fast forward a year. You know all the site spawns and triggers by heart exactly how to find you wh and its sig strength. Your wh is mundane. So now we add in random spawns in sites. Time goes by and guess what? It's still mundane, just more random! So what makes exploration feel exploration-y?

Well you need scale. More solar systems, bigger solar systems that are fresh. Wh space is wayyy overpopulated in C1-3. Make new systems and the wh community is happy for a longgg time. But don't make theses systems the same. fill them with new content. Things that are really weird-- maybe these new systems arnet color coded or classed, maby no statics, maby the loot is higher and a trade off is no pos. Encourage people to do what they did when Apocrypha came out. I think people are thinking too small right now. a couple of years ago CCP said it wasn't doing any more so-called Jesus features. The reason said Jesus features were gimmicky was because they were short lived eye candy (incarna). Something of this scope that everybody could get behind and say "I really wan't this." Would be compleatly different. MAby multiple pieces of this dream would come out in the years to come, but right now people are saying "lets add some randomness and nerf cap escalations and then call it a day." We should get more than that.



More whs wont solve a thing. There is nothing wrong with people in whs. The more systems are inhabited the easssier we can get pvp. So i say no to more whsystems of the same allure.


You just said "wont solve a thing." Implying something needs to be solved. I proposed that overpopulation and basic content are the main things dragging wh's down. new kinds of exploration systems of similarly mysterious nature would fix this problem and reinvigorate exploration for years to come. You mentioned that wh pvp is a product of people inhabiting the space. This is true due to the current wh mechanics. Suppose instead the new systems proposed made it easier to move around and not just squat. Perhaps it would be easier to find people in some way or had other benefits for pvp and roaming gangs. This would of course also be aimed towards small scale efforts rather that alliances who battle in null now. You would then see more of a niche for wh pvp, with solo people roaming and pvping in lush new space. Your thesis that we need to confine people to a small area is based around the existing mechanics of whs. New mechanics and content means new opportunities for both pve and pvp.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#160 - 2013-05-08 11:46:06 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
I proposed that overpopulation and basic content are the main things dragging wh's down.

Lack of content yes, overpopulation no. W-Space is still very much underpopulated. I'm pretty sure we have even lost a lot of population in the last year or so, although without CCP releasing stats, it's impossible to prove.

I'm coming around to the view that w-space needs new content, as well as a thorough shaking up of what we already have. Not so much because I'm bored of w-space myself, but because a significant chunk of the playerbase wants new stuff or they move somewhere else or quit / take a break from EVE. Even the people who do not leave w-space for good and may even protest any change, become less active because the old stuff does not excite them as it once did. If everyone spends only 50% of the time actively playing in w-space compared to how they played 3 years ago, that is effectively a 50% decline in "active-player population".

In 2009, w-space was the new and exciting thing. Now that low sec got a lot of attention, and null is getting attention, w-space will soon be the oldest and most rusty part of EVE. It is still in fairly good shape now because it was designed so well (even if unintentionally Big smile), but this credit will not last forever.

.