Wormholes

Capital escalations give out a LOT of money. It's why Nullbears are farming them, and why prices for everything from W-space is tanking. You can't blame them, really, because people will go where the money is. W-space is so sparsely populated that you can farm your system nearly forever and never see anyone. Nanoribbons are a bottleneck, but we can't "generate" them reliably enough that anyone can control their output like Nullsec can with the Tech bottleneck. Anyone can go to any w-space system to obtain them, so there can be no control ... and that's a good thing.

The "Farming" mechanism is something that I take issue with, though I do admit that I live in C1-C4 systems where there is no capital escalation possible. I also take issue with it as it pertains to Hisec missions as well. If you escalate a Sleeper site, or shoot the NPCs in W-space or k-space mission/site, the NPCs should not respawn and further attempts to escalate the site should be ignored. Things like hacking cans should still cause nearly-instant despawn as they do now. This way, you can't repeatedly farm the same site but you can still escalate and get a nice bit of ISK from it.

The site could change from an Inactive site to an Active site that records current wave and remaining ships, or whatever. The third and fourth escalations should also require that second dread and carrier to stay in the site instead of just triggering and leaving, so the danger levels could stand to be bumped up a little for subsequent escalations, ie, once the initial carrier and dread are sitting comfortably. Nerfing dread tracking a little bit to make subcaps harder to hit will help a little here too. But please take small steps at a time.

If, instead, you roam the C5/C5 chains with a farming fleet, this is perfectly acceptable and the way I personally think it should be done. You can't quad escalate, but you have a never ending pool of sites. Your risk is MUCH higher though.

I also still hear about "constellation farming". If this does still work, it should probably be removed. Perhaps that is what Solar is doing in its C5/C5 evictions and occupation of seemingly "bad" holes?


More randomness is good, and it can also shake up the C5/C6 stalemate situations. Everyone likes fighting in their own fortress system and is terrified of fighting in someone else's fortress system. So when the two connect, both sides just stare at each other all night. Decrease the chances for two fortress systems to connect via statics, and increase the chances for "transit" or "empty" systems and fortress systems to connect via statics. You might need to add more C6 systems for this to happen effectively up there, but there are certainly plenty of C5s to go around to make this work. This doesn't seem to be that big of an issue in C1-C4 systems in my experience.

In addition, adding a new list of short-lived random connections between all classes of W-space that prioritise connecting to active systems can increase potential conflicts, create short-lived but opportunistic logistics routes for deep W-space, etc. People will quickly learn the new limits of the new wormhole types, so you shouldn't try to hide them or randomise them, else people just won't end up using them after all. Perhaps make it so these holes won't spawn a sig in the target system until someone actually jumps through, to increase the surprise factor.

Don't randomize the mass and time sizes on the holes, randomize and prioritize the spawns of newer "conflict-generating" holes instead.


It is good to remove (offline) towers, including place-holder towers, but it should be left it to the players. There have been many great ideas posted about this that could be used as guidance, instead of just heavy-handed manipulation of the game.


And Jack is right that the income from W-space doesn't even amount to a drop in the bucket of Nullbear moon income. It's like matching Particle-man vs Universe-man.
(Yes, now you're thinking of that song. You're welcome. To save time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNT8SMlqLJA :)

It would be interesting to see per capita income from each region of space.


Great idea! Well, as soon as you do the same thing for all NPC bounties. The blue loot is our "bounty" for shooting Sleepers. Unlike hisec though, we have to carry ours to the market before we redeem it, so it's easily lost or destroyed before we can realize profits.

We DO however need more industry that uses Sleeper salvage and gas.

Well listen up - I moved to a C5/C5 to have more PVP. There, now you've heard it. I run sites when I've ran out of isk to buy ships to get blown up, and nothing more. The majority of members in the big wormhole corps are there for PVP - the isk is just a means to engage in that level of PVP. We fight in multi billion isk ships, so what . We also risk losing everything - look at us in TL - we've recently had quite a lot of experience in losing things...

Sure, there's recently been in influx from a certain russian nullsec alliance - I don't believe it'll be much longer until something is done about that, and that'll be by action from the WH PVP community, not unnecessary adjustments to capital escalations.

You left out waking up to find out that while you were offline someone came in, scanned out your system, run all the good sites, swiped all the good gas, and is now watching you and hoping you'll do something dump like bring a capital out of your POS to roll their hole. People don't have to evict you to cost you a lot of time and money, unless you have the numbers to push them off their connection while you crash it.

WHs are not about more PVP, theyre about better PVP.
If you want more PVP, go sit in EC- all day.

This thread is going very off topic

My view as a wormhole resident:

Capital Escalation:

* Don't Nerf our pve sites - don't cut our income, risk vs isk is fine.
* Removing re-spawning of capital escalations after d/t, is an idea, making wh guys go into other wh systems to make isk as well, so they can't just farm their home system.
* Some randomization that would make it hard for people to mult-box PVE sites would be good.

Over-Populated?:

* Most C5 and C6 wormholes are unpopulated or inactive, please help us to bring more players into them. That's what most pvp pilots want, more people to shoot in w-space, not less
* C4s are mostly unpopulated, and the most useless wormhole systems, improve them!
* C1-C3s are mostly ok, but multiple statics and roaming wh's for all wormhole classes would be good, to create more opportunities.

To High, Low, Null sec guys:

* Most w-space pvp alliances hate "farmers" too, we make it our goal to ruin their day!
* Be cool and let w-space guys, comment on w-space issues that effect our core game play, rather than giving negative feedback on issues that don't effect your day to day game play please.

The idea's wich were given contradict a little bit.
-First they want to decrease the money you can make in WH's
-And they want more pvp to happen within wh's
-And they want to have less capitals in WH's

Their idea's are:
- Mass variations on WH's
- Nerfe escalations
- Have capitals die eassier in escalations
-....

What happens:
- Mass variations means more safety to farm in systems, cause you are less eager to commit caps and with that you can prtect your hole better with caps.
- If you Nerfe escalations you will struck the larger entities, they already make least money pro persona. Large entities also usual are the pvp entities.
- Means less large pvp entities to get on top of farming entities.
- We will find a way to counter anything CCP brings when it comes to NPC nerves, unless it is too unbalanced and then CCP will hear from us.
- Whatever you bring it will always balance out, if things get heated up so will fights. If it is not the system that is irregular then it will be humans that are irregular. On the same time its those humans who will balance things again. If it is the system that is irregular we balance it. Cause if something is not balanced at one point it will collapse.
- WH-space delivers the T3 supply of New Eden, but i think we also are the largest consumers of T3's. WH doctrines are t3 doctrines, while outside it usually is t1. This means that we make money of it and spend money on it. We like to fly shiney stuff, but because of that we also lose shiney stuff and because of that we also can make more money.

So my idea's
- keep your hands of whspace cause we balance it out anyway and it is our way of flying and doing things that makes the money, not the wh's itself.
- If you want Caps to die, i say yet again like i said in Iceland.
Extent the siege and triage cycle, caps will die allot eassier by npc then and will die even more by subcap fleets then.
But ccp doesn't like that because of nullspace, so with that i could say its nullspace and supercaps that are unbalanced and not WH-space.
- But instead i say yeah we make more money, yeah we spend more money. But we do that because who we are, because of the type of players we are. We also can't protect our stuff as well as kspace, so there is this risk vs pay-out, we also don't like politics because thats for people who think they are more right then others.
-One of the wh-systems to make easiest money are magnetars, but this also means that if you get jumped in there you probably end up losing your caps allot faster. This just proves again that things will balance anyway.
-Cause its only humans who decide between right or wrong, but there always is one side or the other side.
-If you end up changing things, you probably increase the carebear lvl of corporations or you increase the size of corporations.


-If you want something really different do like you guys suggested in one of the seminars on creating idea's. Whole new type of whspace, no moons/towers, no statics,no outgoing dynamics, only incoming dynamics. This way you can go in, but you have to leave before the wh collapses, it also means someone can collapse you in there. You only can get out by selfdestructing then unless someone finds a new dynamic into that system. So this means from the inside of these special systems you only have K162 outgoing.
-I know you guys didn;t want to implent this idea, because its so hard to get new systems added to eden. But this really would make a difference. Cause its not WH-space you should change, cause its us the players who defined whspace, just like others defined incursions and sov space. With that we also define the market of T3's and we are like i said before probably also the the biggest users and losers of T3's

As people have pointed out, the isk to be made in WHs is somewhat disappointing, compared to what it used to be. Great! That's how it's suppose to work. Supply and demand.

CCP never thought WH would be colonized the way it has. As such, far more people are farming sleeper loot, which increases the supply. Thus, prices fall and the incentive to live in WH space diminishes. If people move out, the value of the loot will increase as the supply drops, and then more will move in again.

It's a self-regulating system. What's the problem?

WH tears best tears

There are also expeditions into Anom-rich systems, which contain the added time and effort to seed the necessary capital fleet, keep the fleet protected for the duration, and then get the fleet back out. If you're lucky, you can do it with two holes in and two holes out. If you continue to be lucky, your staging tower is not attacked while you're offline. ISK per hour drops accordingly.

And people need to remember something else: it's not instantly-applied ISK like bounties in Hisec. You have to haul the items to market to sell before you can be paid. Transmission Lost recently experienced this as they lost an Orca full of 15 bil in expedition loot.

I felt that i should point something out as it seems important:

Yes we need more randomness and mystique in wormholes. The original sense of wonder and fear did not come from having things that were random it came from not knowing how the game mechanics worked. Now that we understand everything from hole crashing to sleeper escalations in its entirety the sense of mystery is gone. Adding mass fluctuations or randomizing the escalation spawns wont bring back the feel of wh space in the early days it will just be annoying to compensate for because we already know how the mechanics work.

Point being, in order to rekindle the game play in WH space the mechanics need to change, not just add mass fluctuations and randomize the sleeper spawns.