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About plans on Cap. Escalation nerf and "ovepopulated wormholes"

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Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-04-27 15:28:16 UTC
We may make a lot of isk in a c5 site but we also throw faction/dead space fit T3s, BS, and caps into PvP (and lose them) on a daily basis.

A typical T3 brawl will sink several billion risk in 20 minutes.

Hell just this past month I've lost 6 billion in direct PvP. But I can still go because I can make the isk back. And they are good because the faction fits allow smaller, more durable fleets that are FUN.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#62 - 2013-04-27 15:44:01 UTC
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Nathan, I agree that is an option, but believe me, having more people in one WH gives a lot of abilities to fight people you would not be able to even with less.

But yeah, it is you playstyle. And this is mine. I think we both have people who would agree with us.


Don't worry about him, he buys 1mn mods for his corp guardians. He doesn't know anything about this game.
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#63 - 2013-04-27 15:49:11 UTC
Roime wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
both those changes would be excellent ways of starting to kill off WHs...
before going down that road, CCP should know that a lot of people who currently live in WHs will not move to different areas of eve is WHs get ruined, they'll leave the game.

personally i can't even begin to understand why anyone would think populating WHs is a bad thing.
as for capital escalations, yeah they make a lot of isk. that said, it's a tiny drop compared to what null alliances make through moons and cannot be farmed as constantly or anywhere near as safely as HS incursions.
the profit vs assets needed and risk is fine, however, some extra randomness (to some degree) would be cool.

people see WHs as massively profitable because the rewards are immediately seen by the individual players. that said, any amount of isk generated by sleeper killing isnt even in the same league as moon goo profits which are far less obviously seen.

PS: btw, MASSIVE no to bigger mass variance on WHs. all it would do is make people less likely to fight.


Wormhole space creates more ISK than all Incursions, mission rewards and insurance together, and salvage is not included in this.

Tech moon yields probably something like 20bil ISK profit per month, which is nothing compared to daily harvesting of cap escalations. You can make more harvesting C3 anomalies.

Capital investment required for holding tech moons is tenfold compared to a C5 farming venture.

Sleeper loot is sold to NPCs, moon goo sold to other players and turned into products. Moon goo generates 0 ISK, sleeper blue loot is the biggest single ISK faucet in game.








My god, you really don't get how moon goo works.
Sandslinger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-04-27 16:37:11 UTC
Phaderift wrote:
where did you get your information from ?


Roime got the information out of his backside, he is one of the most active bitter troll posters on wh forums for some reason =)

He tends to make it up as he goes along, as you so nicely pointed out
QT McWhiskers
EdgeGamers
#65 - 2013-04-27 16:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: QT McWhiskers
Roime wrote:
QT McWhiskers wrote:
I want to line up every single WH resident who has suggested more randomization for WH sizes and slap them all at once. Seriously? More randomization. Hey I just put two BS through my static and warped in my dread. Oh look, my 6billion isk dread is now stuck in a c5 static c1 with no one living in it. Time to self destruct my 6 billion isk dread because idiot WHers couldn't think past the 30 seconds it took for them to wipe the drool off of their lips to utter barely conceivable sentences.

This idea has officially topped the WH stabilizer idea for the dumbest put forward for WHs.

Think before you post please.


Actually, you were the ****** jumping your dread in a C1 static.



You've never been in a c5 have you? Phaderift got it right. If a c5 wormhole, with the 10 percent variation on the negative side, is still stage one, the worst I can do with a dread is put it crit. So, under the right conditions and under the current state of wormholes, jumping a dread into a c5 static c1 is a perfectly safe thing to do.

Lern2WermHole
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-04-27 17:26:47 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:

Shocked Are you serious when talking about nerfing WH isk? I moved out of the C5 WH because the isk is awful

You need 7-8 tengus, a salvager and 3-4 alts to run static sites for what.....200m isk an hour?
You need capitals, T3s, salvagers, a massive group overall to run home sites

No you don't. There's no requirement to escalate C5 sites, and in some cases they're just as good (in terms of ISK/hour) if you don't (especially if it's not your C5, so you don't care if you run it dry). To clear a C5 site you only need three+ DPS (command ships, T3s, or a couple of those and 1-2 BS) and 2-3 logis (two for the reps, and a third in case one DCs). Salvage can be done afterwards, or while most people AFK for bios and such. You will want a couple of alts in cloakys on any WHs you don't want to crash, of course.


So you still need 4 combat ships, 3 logi ships (or 7-8 rr tengus, that is your DPS and logi) a salvager (even if done afterwords it takes time for 1-2 pilots. and at least 2-3 of you need alts, maybe more

thats a massive group, then you have to do the logistics of moving the stuff out of the WH

Or..... you can have you and your alt with covert ops V (would need that for a WH) and mission run to your hearts content in FW for 200k LP an hour, no site spawn rates, no rolling, no billion isk ships at risk.....

We are talking about risk for reward and WH risk for reward is to low, and FW is way to high

I lost my purifier the other day, ****, 40mill isk fit..... i still earned 234k LPs in 1.5 hours and it was low because i didnt get to turn in my last mission (died in it) that would have given another 71k LP....boo hoo lol

its sick, WH need better isk, period
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2013-04-27 18:11:36 UTC
Phaderift wrote:
Roime wrote:
QT McWhiskers wrote:
I want to line up every single WH resident who has suggested more randomization for WH sizes and slap them all at once. Seriously? More randomization. Hey I just put two BS through my static and warped in my dread. Oh look, my 6billion isk dread is now stuck in a c5 static c1 with no one living in it. Time to self destruct my 6 billion isk dread because idiot WHers couldn't think past the 30 seconds it took for them to wipe the drool off of their lips to utter barely conceivable sentences.

This idea has officially topped the WH stabilizer idea for the dumbest put forward for WHs.

Think before you post please.


Actually, you were the ****** jumping your dread in a C1 static.



i thinkyou mis understood him... in the current state .. with a 10% variation on mass its almost impossible to get a dread stuck after 2 BS passes, hell as long as its still stage 1 it is impossible. but if they increase it, you will get stuck a lot more often, as it could put the mass of a single dread pass above 50% of the hole which means you could take it from stage 1 to closed in 1 pass .. thus getting the capital stuck out, in what may be a dead end system leading to an SD


No I didn't misunderstand him, he misunderstood CCP. They want to make it random, so you can't close wormholes with perfect predictability.

When they do it, it will be ******** to do it with a dread, if the C5 in question has a subcap static.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#68 - 2013-04-27 18:23:52 UTC
Phaderift wrote:

they actually have a graph on the Tvs at fanfest about where isk comes from .. and you can see it here at the mittani http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-economy-review its about half way down the page it has a graph showing where isk is coming from .. 0.0 bounties and mission bounties are making up a majority of it ... and in the recent months looks like Wh and incursions are about equal. Keep in mind there are a lot more people in WH then running incursions. Tech moons make about 6 billion a month.. moves around based on market .. and will probably crash a bit with the announced changes to tech 2 production. the capital to harvest a tech moon is about oh 250 million isk for a small tower the mining mod and fuel. defending it is another story, but the capital to harvest it is minimal. where did you get your information from ?


I used the same graph.

"Bounty prices" covers hi, low and nullsec, and no it doesn't look like wormholes and Incursions are about equal. All bounties are just 4 times more than wormholes. Bounty space hosts 95% of population, wormholes 5%.

Ok, my tech moon income figure was old then, but if yours is correct then 6bil per moon does only underline my point- tech income is peanuts compared to cap escalations. That's what, three nights of farming?

Defending the tech moon is not just another story, it's a major part of the story. Good luck holding the moon with just Moros or two, Archon, Loki, Noctis and a covops alt.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#69 - 2013-04-27 18:25:14 UTC
QT McWhiskers wrote:

You've never been in a c5 have you? Phaderift got it right. If a c5 wormhole, with the 10 percent variation on the negative side, is still stage one, the worst I can do with a dread is put it crit. So, under the right conditions and under the current state of wormholes, jumping a dread into a c5 static c1 is a perfectly safe thing to do.

Lern2WermHole


You missed the point. It shouldn't be perfectly safe.

(I live in a C5)

.
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-04-27 18:56:48 UTC
Phaderift wrote:
Roime wrote:
QT McWhiskers wrote:
I want to line up every single WH resident who has suggested more randomization for WH sizes and slap them all at once. Seriously? More randomization. Hey I just put two BS through my static and warped in my dread. Oh look, my 6billion isk dread is now stuck in a c5 static c1 with no one living in it. Time to self destruct my 6 billion isk dread because idiot WHers couldn't think past the 30 seconds it took for them to wipe the drool off of their lips to utter barely conceivable sentences.

This idea has officially topped the WH stabilizer idea for the dumbest put forward for WHs.

Think before you post please.


Actually, you were the ****** jumping your dread in a C1 static.



i thinkyou mis understood him... in the current state .. with a 10% variation on mass its almost impossible to get a dread stuck after 2 BS passes, hell as long as its still stage 1 it is impossible. but if they increase it, you will get stuck a lot more often, as it could put the mass of a single dread pass above 50% of the hole which means you could take it from stage 1 to closed in 1 pass .. thus getting the capital stuck out, in what may be a dead end system leading to an SD


(Tongue in cheek)

I guess CCP wants everyone to put probe launchers and cloaks on their dreads then...
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#71 - 2013-04-27 20:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmic Scanner
Roime wrote:
Phaderift wrote:

they actually have a graph on the Tvs at fanfest about where isk comes from .. and you can see it here at the mittani http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-economy-review its about half way down the page it has a graph showing where isk is coming from .. 0.0 bounties and mission bounties are making up a majority of it ... and in the recent months looks like Wh and incursions are about equal. Keep in mind there are a lot more people in WH then running incursions. Tech moons make about 6 billion a month.. moves around based on market .. and will probably crash a bit with the announced changes to tech 2 production. the capital to harvest a tech moon is about oh 250 million isk for a small tower the mining mod and fuel. defending it is another story, but the capital to harvest it is minimal. where did you get your information from ?


I used the same graph.

"Bounty prices" covers hi, low and nullsec, and no it doesn't look like wormholes and Incursions are about equal. All bounties are just 4 times more than wormholes. Bounty space hosts 95% of population, wormholes 5%.

Ok, my tech moon income figure was old then, but if yours is correct then 6bil per moon does only underline my point- tech income is peanuts compared to cap escalations. That's what, three nights of farming?

Defending the tech moon is not just another story, it's a major part of the story. Good luck holding the moon with just Moros or two, Archon, Loki, Noctis and a covops alt.



What gets me is apparently wormholes only has 5% of the eve population, though we seem to have got 2 candidates onto CSM 8 - very interesting that Blink

I bet if we actually had the figures for the ACTIVE players in eve, you would find that in fact there is a much higher active population in w-space, and that overall income is lower.

If you think w-space is earning too much isk vs reward, why don't you and a group of mates come join us in C5/6 space, its obviously the place to be, i totally promise its completely safe, your shinny ships wont ever be ganked, and you'll never be invaded Smile

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga
Raptors Mole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-04-27 21:04:19 UTC
Roime wrote:
Phaderift wrote:

they actually have a graph on the Tvs at fanfest about where isk comes from .. and you can see it here at the mittani http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-economy-review its about half way down the page it has a graph showing where isk is coming from .. 0.0 bounties and mission bounties are making up a majority of it ... and in the recent months looks like Wh and incursions are about equal. Keep in mind there are a lot more people in WH then running incursions. Tech moons make about 6 billion a month.. moves around based on market .. and will probably crash a bit with the announced changes to tech 2 production. the capital to harvest a tech moon is about oh 250 million isk for a small tower the mining mod and fuel. defending it is another story, but the capital to harvest it is minimal. where did you get your information from ?


I used the same graph.

"Bounty prices" covers hi, low and nullsec, and no it doesn't look like wormholes and Incursions are about equal. All bounties are just 4 times more than wormholes. Bounty space hosts 95% of population, wormholes 5%.

Ok, my tech moon income figure was old then, but if yours is correct then 6bil per moon does only underline my point- tech income is peanuts compared to cap escalations. That's what, three nights of farming?

Defending the tech moon is not just another story, it's a major part of the story. Good luck holding the moon with just Moros or two, Archon, Loki, Noctis and a covops alt.



Once tech moons start despawning - or appear in someone elses Sov and you mine them by sneaking in and doing it under their noses, you'll have a point. Also its passive income like PI.

So 95% of the people who play eve use bounties as their only income, interesting. Who is running incursions, doing industry or FW? Oh the same 95%. A lot of bounty payouts are coincidental income.

I could go on and on but honestly can't be arsed pointing out the flaws in your argument as there are so many of them. WH isk is good - but it is not out of proportion to the risk and effort it takes to make it.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-04-27 22:02:12 UTC
5% may live there but a much large percent day trips in low class and runs sleepers.. i mean cmon..
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-04-27 22:28:57 UTC
Cosmic Scanner wrote:
Roime wrote:
Phaderift wrote:

they actually have a graph on the Tvs at fanfest about where isk comes from .. and you can see it here at the mittani http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-economy-review its about half way down the page it has a graph showing where isk is coming from .. 0.0 bounties and mission bounties are making up a majority of it ... and in the recent months looks like Wh and incursions are about equal. Keep in mind there are a lot more people in WH then running incursions. Tech moons make about 6 billion a month.. moves around based on market .. and will probably crash a bit with the announced changes to tech 2 production. the capital to harvest a tech moon is about oh 250 million isk for a small tower the mining mod and fuel. defending it is another story, but the capital to harvest it is minimal. where did you get your information from ?


I used the same graph.

"Bounty prices" covers hi, low and nullsec, and no it doesn't look like wormholes and Incursions are about equal. All bounties are just 4 times more than wormholes. Bounty space hosts 95% of population, wormholes 5%.

Ok, my tech moon income figure was old then, but if yours is correct then 6bil per moon does only underline my point- tech income is peanuts compared to cap escalations. That's what, three nights of farming?

Defending the tech moon is not just another story, it's a major part of the story. Good luck holding the moon with just Moros or two, Archon, Loki, Noctis and a covops alt.



What gets me is apparently wormholes only has 5% of the eve population, though we seem to have got 2 candidates onto CSM 8 - very interesting that Blink

I bet if we actually had the figures for the ACTIVE players in eve, you would find that in fact there is a much higher active population in w-space, and that overall income is lower.

If you think w-space is earning too much isk vs reward, why don't you and a group of mates come join us in C5/6 space, its obviously the place to be, i totally promise its completely safe, your shinny ships wont ever be ganked, and you'll never be invaded Smile


That is what I did and found that, if you increase WH isk by say....50%, it might be worth the risk reward...... minnie FW stealth bomber alts make as much as C5 statics for idk know how much less risk and effort....1/10? less? its sad

only reason they hate WH isk over FW isk, is that FW isk takes isk out of the game, while the blue drops add isk into the game

so they look the other way while the farming hoard in FW slowly grinds isk out of the game to save it from collapse. once its in an area they think is decent they will nerf LP in half lol
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#75 - 2013-04-28 02:09:59 UTC
Casirio wrote:
5% may live there but a much large percent day trips in low class and runs sleepers.. i mean cmon..


That's a really valid point actually, quite often find this happening!

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga
Bloody Wench
#76 - 2013-04-28 07:24:02 UTC
Laurici wrote:
holy ****, a greyscale post that isn't terribad.

What has happened to CCP???



It's a trap. Once Greyscale is involved you best start looking at some other area of EVE to get your kicks.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2013-04-28 08:20:13 UTC
Casirio wrote:
5% may live there but a much large percent day trips in low class and runs sleepers.. i mean cmon..
My experience is that this is quite rare. Usually if the residents of a C2/3 we jump into haven't cleaned it out, there's stuff everywhere. Maybe the day-trippers stick to C1s.

I wish we did find more - hunting and shooting players is more fun than shooting up sleepers (despite sleepers being far better opponents than k-space rats).
realdognose
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-04-28 08:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: realdognose
Roime wrote:

Wormhole space creates more ISK than all Incursions, mission rewards and insurance together, and salvage is not included in this.


And you know that, because CCPs Numbers from Fan Fest are faked? Roll
http://cdn.tmcdn.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_stopgap/public/sinkfaucet.png?itok=9VuNpI_0

Quote:

I used the same graph.

"Bounty prices" covers hi, low and nullsec, and no it doesn't look like wormholes and Incursions are about equal. All bounties are just 4 times more than wormholes. Bounty space hosts 95% of population, wormholes 5%.

Ok, my tech moon income figure was old then, but if yours is correct then 6bil per moon does only underline my point- tech income is peanuts compared to cap escalations. That's what, three nights of farming?

Defending the tech moon is not just another story, it's a major part of the story. Good luck holding the moon with just Moros or two, Archon, Loki, Noctis and a covops alt.



Comparing Tech and Escalations is non-sence.

TECH is passive income, Escalations needs to be done.
TECH is unlimited, Anomalies will vanish.

While you can't hold a Techmoon with a Farmin-Group, you can't do Escalations with a Tower-Defending fleet either.
It won't payout for 100 people. And IF it wont payout for 100 people, why are 100 people interested in holding Tech moons, when Escalations are better?

Right! Because you simple can not compare it.
Dark Riser Skir
Missionary Creations
#79 - 2013-04-28 09:53:01 UTC
Change all the chance mass to make rolling more difficult get rid of the cap escalations, nerf the isk and oh add random trigger all in all make whs a real pain in the ass to live in. Nice one
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#80 - 2013-04-28 11:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Raptors Mole wrote:

Once tech moons start despawning - or appear in someone elses Sov and you mine them by sneaking in and doing it under their noses, you'll have a point. Also its passive income like PI.

So 95% of the people who play eve use bounties as their only income, interesting. Who is running incursions, doing industry or FW? Oh the same 95%. A lot of bounty payouts are coincidental income.

I could go on and on but honestly can't be arsed pointing out the flaws in your argument as there are so many of them. WH isk is good - but it is not out of proportion to the risk and effort it takes to make it.


I wasn't the one comparing tech income to cap escalations, it was Jack who claimed that "tech goo generates far more ISK than wormholes", which is simply untrue in literal sense (generates 0 ISK) and in value (ISK revenue / month).

No, I didn't say that 95% get income form bounties. Population numbers just gives us a general idea of the proportions- a very small minority group generates an amount of ISK equal to about 25% of what the majority generates via PVE.

It's really obvious why CCP sees wormhole, and specifically cap escalation income as an economical issue. It's ok if you want to deny the facts, or see the income levels balanced to risk and effort, and I'm not claiming that they wouldn't be a major factor in making high-end wh life what it currently is for pvp organisations.

But the problem is that the income is not only accessible to wh pvp organisations, and fuel the thriving communities there, that use the income to fuel fights and risk their assets in order to live in w-space. It's way more profitable for harvesting ventures, who risk only the bare minimum needed, never fight, and if driven away, simply setup shop in another wormhole. These pump the ISK into the economy, not the guys who rather spend their evenings rolling for pew than shooting red crosses.

And the existence of harvesting operations is really only possible because the risk is low. Massive profits, predictable PVE and rolling, defensive advantage and SD inside force field all contribute to the problem. I also claim that real wh corps are much better positioned to adapt to upcoming changes than the ISK farmers, and much of the bloobloo in this thread is nothing more than resisting change.

.