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About plans on Cap. Escalation nerf and "ovepopulated wormholes"

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Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#41 - 2013-04-27 03:53:42 UTC
Xessej wrote:
As a long time Wspace dweller, I'd rather see more PvE sites or more randomness to the existing sites over messing with hole mass limits. To encourage more PvP simply add more holes (both w to w and w to k).


A static C5>C5 (H296) is commonly rolled by throwing two battleships forward and back first, and then following it up with a dread.

I ran some simple numbers to see how much I'd have to vary the wormhole mass to potentially get the dread stuck on the wrong side. I came up with over 30%. That's incredibly high.

I agree with variance on (new) Sleeper sites. The connections are, in my opinion, best left the way they are.

http://www.wormholes.info
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-04-27 04:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:

Shocked Are you serious when talking about nerfing WH isk? I moved out of the C5 WH because the isk is awful

You need 7-8 tengus, a salvager and 3-4 alts to run static sites for what.....200m isk an hour?
You need capitals, T3s, salvagers, a massive group overall to run home sites

No you don't. There's no requirement to escalate C5 sites, and in some cases they're just as good (in terms of ISK/hour) if you don't (especially if it's not your C5, so you don't care if you run it dry). To clear a C5 site you only need three+ DPS (command ships, T3s, or a couple of those and 1-2 BS) and 2-3 logis (two for the reps, and a third in case one DCs). Salvage can be done afterwards, or while most people AFK for bios and such. You will want a couple of alts in cloakys on any WHs you don't want to crash, of course.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#43 - 2013-04-27 07:54:57 UTC
Sandslinger wrote:

No one will ever risk


WH people, more risk averse than nullbears.

Wormhole masses and lifetimes should definitely be much more random, Greyscale is on the right track.

.
Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#44 - 2013-04-27 09:08:05 UTC
Roime wrote:
Sandslinger wrote:

No one will ever risk


WH people, more risk averse than nullbears.

Wormhole masses and lifetimes should definitely be much more random, Greyscale is on the right track.


Come to my wormhole and I will show you risk averse.

0.0 is the most risk averse part of the game. Everyone hides behind their supercaps and if a fight doesnt look like its going to be won its "stand down", "our cyno isnt in position" <- meaning we are going to get stomped and I dont want to say it.

0.0 is pathetic, everyone is too bothered about SOV and Moon Goo.

Remove SOV, that should fix half the problems in 0.0 right away.
Elinea Ausene
Tail Spin Corp
Proxima Centauri Alliance
#45 - 2013-04-27 09:16:10 UTC
I want to say as a wh carebear: I want to do pvp, but its terrible to get back into my 5 class system after pod) really I have to take a lot of time to go trough the scan, which I hate, only to come to my ships)



Besides space looks really bad. nebulaes in k-space are great, but about wh ccp has forgot.
Actually I cant understand why on the logo of odyssey are ruins of sleeper sites when noone want to bring something new into it)
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-04-27 09:31:48 UTC
Thx for answering in the thread.

Sandslinger wrote:

Increased randomization on hole sizes is a terrible terrible idea.

The only thing it would bring to the game is "large" gangs especially ones ready to go ******* deep into enemy systems with capital support completely unwilling to do so !!!.

No one will ever risk taking a fleet through a hole and into a enemy gang unless they can reliably calculate the available mass on the hole, the risk of having half your fleet cut off and the other half incinerated by an awaiting fleet is WAY too large.

What the heck is increased randomization on holes meant to bring to the game play ?????????????????????

So suddenly there is a large chance of getting your capital stuck when cycling a hole.... Does anyone who has ever cycled a hole really think getting your capital character stuck in a hostile system for 1 month as fun ?????

And never mind not being able to cycle all that does is make wh space ten times more static I would absolutely hate to be stuck with a boring static for a entire night. Because if your neighbors pos up then there is frankly nothing you can get out of the hole.

Is it fun when what would be a calculated risk of your gang taking the ultimate risk and jumping into a hostile gang knowing it will close your way home with the last ship for a Win or die maneuver only to find with new mechanics the hole suddenly closes on half your gang and your gang is slaughtered wholesale...Is that fun for anyone ??

Seriously stop listening to the people at fan fest they are drunk as hell and talking out of their backsides =). Anyone who has been there knows the mentality of the place it's a circle jerk not a brainstorm :P
...

One thing is for sure however.

your "balancing" of dreads has REALLY messed up wh pvp and a lot of low sec pvp too. Creating a scenario where the defending side is the only one that gets to have them with reliability makes that situation much much worse and does nothing to improve it.


This!

Sure, mass randomization should add some interest for some. But mostly for the newcomers with 5-10 ppl fleets. But as for big entities of C5-C6 space the result would likely be what Sandslinger has written in the post, detailing what I've mentioned in the starting post.

Even currently it happens, that a carrier coming into "not reduced" 3bil hole closes it. It adds SO MUCH FUN to have your capitals stuck somewhere for months! Making it more often, oh no, please!
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-04-27 09:34:15 UTC
Shingorash wrote:

0.0 is the most risk averse part of the game. Everyone hides behind their supercaps and if a fight doesnt look like its going to be won its "stand down", "our cyno isnt in position" <- meaning we are going to get stomped and I dont want to say it.

Or a fight starts with a roaming gang of cruisers, it's pretty even, so one side hotdrops the other, or runs and docks up. Then the 0.0 types whine about how there's nobody to fight.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-04-27 10:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
both those changes would be excellent ways of starting to kill off WHs...
before going down that road, CCP should know that a lot of people who currently live in WHs will not move to different areas of eve is WHs get ruined, they'll leave the game.

personally i can't even begin to understand why anyone would think populating WHs is a bad thing.
as for capital escalations, yeah they make a lot of isk. that said, it's a tiny drop compared to what null alliances make through moons and cannot be farmed as constantly or anywhere near as safely as HS incursions.
the profit vs assets needed and risk is fine, however, some extra randomness (to some degree) would be cool.

people see WHs as massively profitable because the rewards are immediately seen by the individual players. that said, any amount of isk generated by sleeper killing isnt even in the same league as moon goo profits which are far less obviously seen.

PS: btw, MASSIVE no to bigger mass variance on WHs. all it would do is make people less likely to fight.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-04-27 10:57:10 UTC
More site randomness would be good. Getting rid of repeated escalation farming of unfinished sites would probably also be good, because it might compel groups to farm in their chain, instead of sealing themselves off in their own system - bigger chance of sparking a fight.

Another awesome thing would be converting blue loot (npc isk faucet) into something usable in industry and tradeable on market. I dont really care whether its new T3 ship, some DUST doodad, Seagull's magical stargate or whatever.

SSC Brokering Service
Indo Nira
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-04-27 11:35:47 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
More site randomness would be good. Getting rid of repeated escalation farming of unfinished sites would probably also be good, because it might compel groups to farm in their chain, instead of sealing themselves off in their own system - bigger chance of sparking a fight.

Another awesome thing would be converting blue loot (npc isk faucet) into something usable in industry and tradeable on market. I dont really care whether its new T3 ship, some DUST doodad, Seagull's magical stargate or whatever.


sparking a fight.... you can easily do that by reinforcing a tower. or a poco. or dropping gscs in front of their tower and renaming them to cool insults like
Quote:
You fight like a dairy farmer.
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#51 - 2013-04-27 12:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmic Scanner
Please do not **** with the Mass of Wormholes, as someone who has lived in wh's for over 2 years, the only reason it is still fun is because you can roll wh's and find something fun to do.

And remember, chain rolling is actually a good random element in w-space, you just don't know which wormhole your going to get! Destroying chain rolling will only create less PVP in w-space, FACT.

As for nerfing C5/C6 sites, CCP must be out of their minds, the actual isk per hour you make is not that much, you have to take into account the hours upon hours you spend scanning, the sheer logistics of living in a C5/6 class wormhole and the possibility of your capitals being ganked, especially so in C6's.

Hence my character name, 80% of my eve time goes to scanning, so my isk per hour is not that ******* great!

To put it into perspective, to run capital escalations you have to put heavy assets on the line, once your capitals are on grid, there is no warping out until you are finished, that means should another entity connect to you, they will probably jump you before you have the chance to get away.

However, i do not disagree with a bit of randomness to PVE sleeper sites, just don't Nerf them - or w-space wont be worth the time and effort.

Also on fanfest i heard that something like 80% of wormholes are occupied - i was like wtf??? that must be C3-C1 wh's only, most C4's are empty, and probably over 80% of C5-C6 wh's are either empty or residents inactive! At least it feels like that sometimes.

One thing that would be great, is having MORE static wormholes and MORE roaming wormholes Big smile

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
#52 - 2013-04-27 13:03:44 UTC
Indo Nira wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
More site randomness would be good. Getting rid of repeated escalation farming of unfinished sites would probably also be good, because it might compel groups to farm in their chain, instead of sealing themselves off in their own system - bigger chance of sparking a fight.

Another awesome thing would be converting blue loot (npc isk faucet) into something usable in industry and tradeable on market. I dont really care whether its new T3 ship, some DUST doodad, Seagull's magical stargate or whatever.


sparking a fight.... you can easily do that by reinforcing a tower. or a poco. or dropping gscs in front of their tower and renaming them to cool insults like
Quote:
You fight like a dairy farmer.


oh and +1 Big smile

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga
Sibasomos
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#53 - 2013-04-27 13:37:43 UTC
Sandslinger wrote:

Increased randomization on hole sizes is a terrible terrible idea.

The only thing it would bring to the game is "large" gangs especially ones ready to go ******* deep into enemy systems with capital support completely unwilling to do so !!!.
[...]
And never mind not being able to cycle all that does is make wh space ten times more static I would absolutely hate to be stuck with a boring static for a entire night. Because if your neighbors pos up then there is frankly nothing you can get out of the hole.

Is it fun when what would be a calculated risk of your gang taking the ultimate risk and jumping into a hostile gang knowing it will close your way home with the last ship for a Win or die maneuver only to find with new mechanics the hole suddenly closes on half your gang and your gang is slaughtered wholesale...Is that fun for anyone ??


Jack Miton wrote:

as for capital escalations, yeah they make a lot of isk. that said, it's a tiny drop compared to what null alliances make through moons and cannot be farmed as constantly or anywhere near as safely as HS incursions.
the risk vs assets needed and risk is fine, however, some extra randomness (to some degree) would be cool.


Cosmic Scanner wrote:

To put it into perspective, to run capital escalations you have to put heavy assets on the line, once your capitals are on grid, there is no warping out until you are finished, that means should another entity connect to you, they will probably jump you before you have the chance to get away.

However, i do not disagree with a bit of randomness to PVE sleeper sites, just don't Nerf them - or w-space wont be worth the time and effort.


Basically, what they said. A bit more randomness in sleeper sites wouldn't hurt probably, but before nerfing WH income CCP should consider the following:

Nowhere else in EVE will you find PvE content that requires amounts of preparation and teamwork comparable to what C5/6 sites demand. In all my time in nullsec I've never come across groups of people as close-knit as wh corps/alliances. (And this is what eve is all about, right? Teamwork?)

I also doubt that increasing the mass variance on whs is a good idea, for the reasons quoted above. In my eyes, pilot skill and good intel is what should decide a fight in wh space, not some random number generated to determine how many ships you can squeeze through a wh.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-04-27 13:39:23 UTC
after watching the key note i just hope we will get a cool visual wormhole warp when we jump through like the new stargate animations. war on loading bars ccp do this!
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-04-27 14:09:31 UTC
Casirio wrote:
after watching the key note i just hope we will get a cool visual wormhole warp when we jump through like the new stargate animations. war on loading bars ccp do this!


My Bet is

Jumpgates (done)
Station docking/undocking
then
wormholes
QT McWhiskers
MultiPass Inc.
The 5th Seal
#56 - 2013-04-27 14:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: QT McWhiskers
I want to line up every single WH resident who has suggested more randomization for WH sizes and slap them all at once. Seriously? More randomization. Hey I just put two BS through my static and warped in my dread. Oh look, my 6billion isk dread is now stuck in a c5 static c1 with no one living in it. Time to self destruct my 6 billion isk dread because idiot WHers couldn't think past the 30 seconds it took for them to wipe the drool off of their lips to utter barely conceivable sentences.

This idea has officially topped the WH stabilizer idea for the dumbest put forward for WHs.

Think before you post please.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2013-04-27 14:37:51 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
both those changes would be excellent ways of starting to kill off WHs...
before going down that road, CCP should know that a lot of people who currently live in WHs will not move to different areas of eve is WHs get ruined, they'll leave the game.

personally i can't even begin to understand why anyone would think populating WHs is a bad thing.
as for capital escalations, yeah they make a lot of isk. that said, it's a tiny drop compared to what null alliances make through moons and cannot be farmed as constantly or anywhere near as safely as HS incursions.
the profit vs assets needed and risk is fine, however, some extra randomness (to some degree) would be cool.

people see WHs as massively profitable because the rewards are immediately seen by the individual players. that said, any amount of isk generated by sleeper killing isnt even in the same league as moon goo profits which are far less obviously seen.

PS: btw, MASSIVE no to bigger mass variance on WHs. all it would do is make people less likely to fight.


Wormhole space creates more ISK than all Incursions, mission rewards and insurance together, and salvage is not included in this.

Tech moon yields probably something like 20bil ISK profit per month, which is nothing compared to daily harvesting of cap escalations. You can make more harvesting C3 anomalies.

Capital investment required for holding tech moons is tenfold compared to a C5 farming venture.

Sleeper loot is sold to NPCs, moon goo sold to other players and turned into products. Moon goo generates 0 ISK, sleeper blue loot is the biggest single ISK faucet in game.






.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#58 - 2013-04-27 14:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
QT McWhiskers wrote:
I want to line up every single WH resident who has suggested more randomization for WH sizes and slap them all at once. Seriously? More randomization. Hey I just put two BS through my static and warped in my dread. Oh look, my 6billion isk dread is now stuck in a c5 static c1 with no one living in it. Time to self destruct my 6 billion isk dread because idiot WHers couldn't think past the 30 seconds it took for them to wipe the drool off of their lips to utter barely conceivable sentences.

This idea has officially topped the WH stabilizer idea for the dumbest put forward for WHs.

Think before you post please.


Actually, you were the ****** jumping your dread in a C1 static.

.
Phaderift
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2013-04-27 15:04:16 UTC
Roime wrote:
QT McWhiskers wrote:
I want to line up every single WH resident who has suggested more randomization for WH sizes and slap them all at once. Seriously? More randomization. Hey I just put two BS through my static and warped in my dread. Oh look, my 6billion isk dread is now stuck in a c5 static c1 with no one living in it. Time to self destruct my 6 billion isk dread because idiot WHers couldn't think past the 30 seconds it took for them to wipe the drool off of their lips to utter barely conceivable sentences.

This idea has officially topped the WH stabilizer idea for the dumbest put forward for WHs.

Think before you post please.


Actually, you were the ****** jumping your dread in a C1 static.



i thinkyou mis understood him... in the current state .. with a 10% variation on mass its almost impossible to get a dread stuck after 2 BS passes, hell as long as its still stage 1 it is impossible. but if they increase it, you will get stuck a lot more often, as it could put the mass of a single dread pass above 50% of the hole which means you could take it from stage 1 to closed in 1 pass .. thus getting the capital stuck out, in what may be a dead end system leading to an SD
Phaderift
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#60 - 2013-04-27 15:09:48 UTC
Roime wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
both those changes would be excellent ways of starting to kill off WHs...
before going down that road, CCP should know that a lot of people who currently live in WHs will not move to different areas of eve is WHs get ruined, they'll leave the game.

personally i can't even begin to understand why anyone would think populating WHs is a bad thing.
as for capital escalations, yeah they make a lot of isk. that said, it's a tiny drop compared to what null alliances make through moons and cannot be farmed as constantly or anywhere near as safely as HS incursions.
the profit vs assets needed and risk is fine, however, some extra randomness (to some degree) would be cool.

people see WHs as massively profitable because the rewards are immediately seen by the individual players. that said, any amount of isk generated by sleeper killing isnt even in the same league as moon goo profits which are far less obviously seen.

PS: btw, MASSIVE no to bigger mass variance on WHs. all it would do is make people less likely to fight.


Wormhole space creates more ISK than all Incursions, mission rewards and insurance together, and salvage is not included in this.

Tech moon yields probably something like 20bil ISK profit per month, which is nothing compared to daily harvesting of cap escalations. You can make more harvesting C3 anomalies.

Capital investment required for holding tech moons is tenfold compared to a C5 farming venture.

Sleeper loot is sold to NPCs, moon goo sold to other players and turned into products. Moon goo generates 0 ISK, sleeper blue loot is the biggest single ISK faucet in game.




they actually have a graph on the Tvs at fanfest about where isk comes from .. and you can see it here at the mittani http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-economy-review its about half way down the page it has a graph showing where isk is coming from .. 0.0 bounties and mission bounties are making up a majority of it ... and in the recent months looks like Wh and incursions are about equal. Keep in mind there are a lot more people in WH then running incursions. Tech moons make about 6 billion a month.. moves around based on market .. and will probably crash a bit with the announced changes to tech 2 production. the capital to harvest a tech moon is about oh 250 million isk for a small tower the mining mod and fuel. defending it is another story, but the capital to harvest it is minimal. where did you get your information from ?