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FEDERATION DENIES REPUBLIC REQUEST FOR EXTRADITION OF SHOOTER

Author
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#61 - 2013-04-27 21:40:07 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
[quote=James Syagrius]You're going to get justice. Us Gallenteans, your friends, are very skilled at delivering justice. You just have to be patient with us as there are a lot of things our process needs to cover regarding these unspeakable acts.



If your government would bother to keep us fully informed on the details, then maybe we could accept that.

And has it occurred to you that the Gallentean idea of justice in this scenario may well not match our own.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-04-27 21:53:53 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
[quote=James Syagrius]You're going to get justice. Us Gallenteans, your friends, are very skilled at delivering justice. You just have to be patient with us as there are a lot of things our process needs to cover regarding these unspeakable acts.



If your government would bother to keep us fully informed on the details, then maybe we could accept that.

And has it occurred to you that the Gallentean idea of justice in this scenario may well not match our own.


It's very clear that our ideas of justice differ. However this was a Gallente criminal who committed a crime on Gallente sovereignty against mostly Gallente citizens.

We understand and sympathize with those killed or injured that come from the Republic, however you have to understand that this is mostly a Gallente matter that you poor souls got pulled into.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#63 - 2013-04-27 22:32:26 UTC
What right does the Republic have to demand a Gallente terrorist, who killed Gallente Citizens (and most importantly) on Gallente soil be delivered to the Republic justice system?

Yes it is regrettable that some Republic citizens including a leader held in high esteem was injured, but the Republic still has no jurisdiction.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#64 - 2013-04-27 23:19:35 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
It's very clear that our ideas of justice differ. However this was a Gallente criminal who committed a crime on Gallente sovereignty against mostly Gallente citizens.

We understand and sympathize with those killed or injured that come from the Republic, however you have to understand that this is mostly a Gallente matter that you poor souls got pulled into.




Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.

Xindi Kraid wrote:
What right does the Republic have to demand a Gallente terrorist, who killed Gallente Citizens (and most importantly) on Gallente soil be delivered to the Republic justice system?

Yes it is regrettable that some Republic citizens including a leader held in high esteem was injured, but the Republic still has no jurisdiction.


You already answer your own question. If a Gallente leader was harmed or killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, would you claim that the Federation had no jurisdiction?

And you ignore that many, if not all, of the "Gallente Citizens" that were victims in the attack were Minmatar, regardless of their citizenship.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#65 - 2013-04-28 00:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Katarina Musana wrote:

Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.
Yes it is likely this was a racially motivated action, but the Republic is not the same thing as the Minmatar people. It is disingenuous to claim they speak for ALL Minmatar.

Quote:
You already answer your own question. If a Gallente leader was harmed or killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, would you claim that the Federation had no jurisdiction?

Yes, especially when it's a terrorist attack that harmed more than just that one person.

Sovereign entities retain the right to handle business in their space
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#66 - 2013-04-28 01:13:49 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Yes it is likely this was a racially motivated action, but the Republic is not the same thing as the Minmatar people. It is disingenuous to claim they speak for ALL Minmatar.


Republic Citizens or not, this is a Minmatar matter. Shakor had it right when he said, “This crime was perpetrated against the Minmatar people. Many of those slain and injured were Republic citizens, some visiting family and friends in the Federation. All were Minmatar and members of a tribe. One of our Rays lies at death's door thanks to the actions of this deranged madman. The Federation cannot handle prosecution properly. It is virtually unthinkable that they will deliver satisfaction to the Minmatar people.”

Tribal ties come before national citizenship.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#67 - 2013-04-28 01:44:48 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Anabella Rella wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Allies don’t threaten to kill you when they don’t get their way.

Its about time the Federation saw the Tribal entity for what it is. A gaggle of ungrateful beggars who can’t be trusted!


Because we were once on a friendly basis I'll attempt to remain civil in the face of your outrageously racist statement and simply point out that the Republic's government didn't threaten violence towards the Federation;

Racist... the age old accusation flung to breed aversion towards those who express troublesome and unwanted opinion. I did not mentioned a race, but a political entity formerly called the Republic.

Somehow I expected more of you my once and would be friend.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Your opinion is noted, as are their actions. When the dog bites, perhaps you will deem the merit of my opinion differently.

Nothing personal, but I hope you aren't proven right for the sake of New Eden. Though if that happens, you can personally send me an "I told you so" letter.

I Sir respect you and your opinion. You may rest assured that the tenor of your comment assured no offence.

As to whom right will side. I hope she chooses yours, but the universe has a way of disappointing.

Should my opinion prove, you may expect no vainglorious missive.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#68 - 2013-04-28 02:18:34 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
You already answer your own question. If a Gallente leader was harmed or killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, would you claim that the Federation had no jurisdiction?

I would imagine that we would.

If while at play your child strikes mine in your dwelling who would you expect to punish the offending child?
Katarina Musana wrote:
And you ignore that many, if not all, of the "Gallente Citizens" that were victims in the attack were Minmatar, regardless of their citizenship.

Republic Citizens or not, this is a Minmatar matter. Tribal ties come before national citizenship.

I am a great fool, I nearly missed this. I suppose age and vice are taking their toll. Ma’dame Musana no doubt unwittingly distilled the thing.

Those in the Tribal Entity have no regard for citizenship or sovereignty. Only their opinion of blood matters. They alone are the arbiters of justice. A Minmatar no matter how removed from place or custom is considered to be Tribal forever by rite of blood!

Our compassion has made us blind. There is a boar in the garden of the Lord....
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-04-28 03:07:25 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:



Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.




First off, race doesn't matter here in the Federation. You can be Brutor, Khanid, Deitis or whatever, if you are a Gallente citizen, you are Gallente. There are of course racists but they make up the vast minority of people here. For the most part, race is but a footnote over here.

Secondly, even if Republic citizens were killed, you are no more right to handle this case than we are. If this entire thing was centered around who was killed and injured then wouldn't handing him over on the grounds that Republic citizens were killed be a massive injustice to the Gallenteans that were killed?

It was an attack against both of us. If the goal was to slaughter and maim Minmatar and only Minmatar there are much more precise ways he could of gone about it. Such as targeting Minmatar communities within the Federation, only firing on Minmatar at the massacre, or even using bio-weapons with race selective properties.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#70 - 2013-04-28 03:17:35 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
[quote=Katarina Musana]

I am a great fool, I nearly missed this. I suppose age and vice are taking their toll. Ma’dame Musana no doubt unwittingly distilled the thing.

Those in the Tribal Entity have no regard for citizenship or sovereignty. Only their opinion of blood matters. They alone are the arbiters of justice. A Minmatar no matter how removed from place or custom is considered to be Tribal forever by rite of blood!



We have a lot of regard for citizenship and sovereignty. What you seem unable to grasp is that one of our most beloved political figures is dying because of the actions of a Gallente citizen.

And the Federation won't give him up. How would that look to you, if our positions were reversed? From this end, it looks like they're trying to quietly bury the whole affair.

I'm sorry I sound so bitter. I've just seen far too much in my life to put much stock in the 'good will' of humanity.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#71 - 2013-04-28 04:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
The basic legal quarrel here is simple: Federation law has it that because the crime happened in Federation territory, it should be judged solely under Federation law; tribal law has it that because the crime was clearly targeted against the tribe(s), tribal law has precedence.

I say precedence, because the shooter's tribal status has not been released. "Federal citizen" does not exclude the possibility that s/he was a member. If s/he was not, then obviously this is not a completely internal matter. If s/he was, on the other hand, tribal law - as I understand it, admittedly based on much lower level courts and no formal legal training - does not recognize the Federation's authority at all. No outsider may judge on an internal issue, unless explicitly requested to do so by the clan / tribe / alliance that holds jurisdiction.

That as a sidenote. Currently the Federation holds the culprit and so they can proceed as they like. This is unfortunate, but true. "As they like", by the way, unlike Captain Noh seems to be able to grasp, includes negotiation, should they so choose.

What remains puzzling is why the Federation courts chose to add the slur about not trusting tribal courts to judge fairly in their statement. Their legal case is sound (under their law), and the insult did not at all serve their goal of getting the tribes to accept their jurisdiction. A professional (which I have to assume Federation high courts are) would have left that bit unsaid, unless they had the explicit intent to provoke the target. What gives?
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#72 - 2013-04-28 07:04:21 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:



Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.




First off, race doesn't matter here in the Federation. You can be Brutor, Khanid, Deitis or whatever, if you are a Gallente citizen, you are Gallente. There are of course racists but they make up the vast minority of people here. For the most part, race is but a footnote over here.

Secondly, even if Republic citizens were killed, you are no more right to handle this case than we are. If this entire thing was centered around who was killed and injured then wouldn't handing him over on the grounds that Republic citizens were killed be a massive injustice to the Gallenteans that were killed?

It was an attack against both of us. If the goal was to slaughter and maim Minmatar and only Minmatar there are much more precise ways he could of gone about it. Such as targeting Minmatar communities within the Federation, only firing on Minmatar at the massacre, or even using bio-weapons with race selective properties.


Perhaps it was an attack against "both of us" rather than just the Tribes, but if that is the case, then the Federation should be collaborating with our Republic in their investigation rather than excluding us entirely.
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#73 - 2013-04-28 07:29:29 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

First off, race doesn't matter here in the Federation. You can be Brutor, Khanid, Deitis or whatever, if you are a Gallente citizen, you are Gallente.


It's for this precise reason that I will be revoking my status as a citizen of the Gallente Federation and returning to Republic space to mourn and hope with my Sebiestor brothers and sisters.

And considering the storm that is brewing and from whom, I would not be surprised to see an attempt on the Federation President's life. With any luck, it will go better for you than it has for us.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.

Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#74 - 2013-04-28 08:43:49 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

... What you seem unable to grasp is that one of our most beloved political figures is dying because of the actions of a Gallente citizen. ...


We don't really know who is he, out authorities didn't release no info about him yet.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#75 - 2013-04-28 09:17:21 UTC
Authorities did not reveal information about the culprit as such, but the Federation court statement includes a hint:

Quote:
This was a crime committed by a Federation citizen on Federation soil with a majority of Federation victims


So s/he was a citizen, apparently.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#76 - 2013-04-28 12:18:00 UTC
Quote:
the gunman detonated explosives in several locations around the facility, disabling key security measures and killing a number of personnel as well as several bystanders both inside the building and outside. He then opened fire with a high-powered automatic weapon from a hidden vantage point above the main conference hall. Approximately ten minutes later, upon learning the building was surrounded, he reportedly gave himself up to police without resistance.


You have to feel some kind of sympathy for the citizens of the Republic wanting to extradite the citizen and have him face a trial in their courts. Has as already been said one of their beloved figures is seriously injured, with many more injured and killed. As both nations are allies to keep good relations you would think Gallente Federation would agree to extradite the individual, even if it is not technically the correct thing to do legally speaking. With the total media blackout individual should be able to get a fair trial.

What do we actually know about the individual arrested, absolutley nothing. All we know explosives were detonated in several locations, and from hidden vantage point an individual opened fire. Once the building was surrounded someone came out and gave themselves up. Has the individual confessed to the crime , did anyone get a good look at the shooter , was he arrested with the weapon that actually comitted the crime. Are the Federation sure the shots were fired from that buidling. Have they actually got the real shooter incustody. Suppose we will just have to wait for Federation to release more information out into the public domain.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2013-04-28 12:21:34 UTC
Did the Minmatar and tribal higher authorities state that Federal authorities denied them information ?

Or is that just the public and the masses asking for sensitive information to be released ?

Ava Starfire wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Ah, the joy of politics exploiting human misery.

Both parties are seriously starting to sound like two dogs fighting over a bone. Or the bones of quite a decent amount of victims, if I may add.

I wonder how all their families feel about that.


Ah, the joys of meaningless, look at me "contributions" to a discussion.

As usual, you contribute to a discussion by demonstrating your moral superiority... and nothing else.



Thank you for not addressing my point, as usual.

You did not find anything better than a personal attack ? I will reiterate, you all hypocrites that usually claim to care about people feelings and how terrible this situation is for the victims, you sound exactly like the politicians trying to exploit the exact same misery to advance their personal agendas.

It would be wiser to be quiet and let the justice do its work.
Adreena Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe
#78 - 2013-04-28 13:37:09 UTC
If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.

It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism.

...................\o\ /o/...................

Anslo
Scope Works
#79 - 2013-04-28 15:09:48 UTC
Adreena Madeveda wrote:
If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.

It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism.


Dude what?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#80 - 2013-04-28 16:59:29 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Adreena Madeveda wrote:
If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.

It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism.


Dude what?


I believe that was directed at Lyn "Holier and Smarter Than Thou" Farel.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.