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The new Tags system: Tag4Sec

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Indahmawar Fazmarai
#41 - 2013-04-27 14:02:23 UTC
So essentially certain players will be able to pay CCP and get rid of the consequences of their actions against other players. Nice move.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2013-04-27 14:03:34 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So essentially certain players will be able to pay CCP and get rid of the consequences of their actions against other players.
No.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-04-27 14:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
What worries me about this new Tags4Sec system is that it essentially removes consequences in a Pay2Win kind of way.

Simple example:

Bob pays $15 a month for EVE (bare-bones sub). Bob does some bad things, tanks his sec status. He now faces 40 hrs of grind to recover his sec status. But because Bob has wife, kids, mortgage and health problems, he can only afford $15/mo on EVE.

Tim pays $115 a month for EVE (sub + 5x PLEX, which translates into say 2.5 billion ISK). Tim does the same bad things, alongside with bob, and tanks his sec status in an identical way. Tim forks over a billion or two ISK for some tags (farmed by semi-bot and/or multi-boxers in 2nd and 3rd world countries who need to make ISK for PLEX to be able to afford to keep playing) and recovers instantly. He can do this several times a month. As such, for him, the consequences of a sec status loss are meaningless.

With these changes, CCP might as well just remove the security status of each player altogether. Wealthy players will just buy their way out of trouble, something poorer players (either ISK-wise or real-life) will be unable to do. Pay2Win at its finest.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#44 - 2013-04-27 14:20:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So essentially certain players will be able to pay CCP and get rid of the consequences of their actions against other players.
No.


1. Lose sec status, suffer consequences
2. Buy PLEX
3. Sell PLEX for ISK
4. Buy tags with ISK
5. Buy sec status with tags, get rid of consequences
6. Back to 1

Yes.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#45 - 2013-04-27 14:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
What worries me about this new Tags4Sec system is that it essentially removes consequences in a Pay2Win kind of way.

Simple example:

Bob pays $15 a month for EVE (bare-bones sub). Bob does some bad things, tanks his sec status. He now faces 40 hrs of grind to recover his sec status. But because Bob has wife, kids, mortgage and health problems, he can only afford $15/mo on EVE.

Tim pays $115 a month for EVE (sub + 5x PLEX, which translates into say 2.5 billion ISK). Tim does the same bad things, alongside with bob, and tanks his sec status in an identical way. Tim forks over a billion or two ISK for some tags (farmed by semi-bot and/or multi-boxers in 2nd and 3rd world countries who need to make ISK for PLEX to be able to afford to keep playing) and recovers instantly. He can do this several times a month. As such, for him, the consequences of a sec status loss are meaningless.

With these changes, CCP might as well just remove the security status of each player altogether. Wealthy players will just buy their way out of trouble, something poorer players (either ISK-wise or real-life) will be unable to do. Pay2Win at its finest.


But CCP has got a solid business case for it as those tags translate into commodity PLEXes for them, and commodity PLEXes are the cheapest way to monetarize content. It's very cunning.


PS: also they're nerfing the gain of security status through gameplay. Very cunning.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2013-04-27 14:32:50 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So essentially certain players will be able to pay CCP and get rid of the consequences of their actions against other players.
No.
1. Lose sec status, suffer consequences
2. Buy PLEX
3. Sell PLEX for ISK
4. Buy tags with ISK
5. Buy sec status with tags, get rid of consequences
6. Back to 1
…and at no point are you able to pay CCP to get rid of consequences. So no.

You're asking CCP to give someone else game time so they can grind the ISK required so that you can pay someone else to grind the tags required so you can show that the already existing consequences for crime have been paid for.

The consequences are the same as ever — they are not being removed. CCP is not giving you anything. You're simply time/place-shifting the payment of those consequences through a service trade that is very similar to how PLEX work.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-04-27 14:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Tippia wrote:

The tag system does not remove any grinding or give people anything for free.


Correct, taking on NPC's is still needed.

Tippia wrote:

All it does is decouple it from a specific time and place. You can now grind before you lose sec, or you can outsource it — the grinding still has to be done to get the sec status back, and they'll probably try to balance it to be the same amount as before.


Again correct, a high-sec ganker could, in theory, grind a full month to be able to gank all the time in the next before his tags finally run out. The weakness of its current design is this: "or you can outsource it".

Which leads to this
Tippia wrote:


No amount of money will help you get your sec status back up unless someone has done that grind. Nothing is suddenly being generated out of nowhere.


being partially correct. Yes, it has to be acquired first, but the major issue is that these tags are not "soulbound" or "bind-on-pickup". Ergo this means that players will find them and decide to put them on the market instead. And then we come to the major flaw in the system. Because these tags will be available on the market, this means that players that have not done any grinding of sec whatsoever, can avoid any penalty in relation to sec status. The sec status decreases the same as always, but the circumvention lies in the fact that they merely have to buy the tokens that another has found. ISK is power. This power can be gained by buying Plex and selling it for ISK. Ergo, the situation that Jame Jarl Retief and Indahmawar Fazmarai mentioned is valid, and therefore CCP (un)intentionally implements a model in which the variable "real life money" is used to determine the power of the player.

Because of this, CCP should, if they want to stay a credible organization, remove the current plan as it is, or make the tokens account-bound.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-04-27 14:49:09 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

But CCP has got a solid business case for it as those tags translate into commodity PLEXes for them, and commodity PLEXes are the cheapest way to monetarize content. It's very cunning.

PS: also they're nerfing the gain of security status through gameplay. Very cunning.


Well, if money is an issue, they could simply change the game to attract more players. Instead of chasing players away and then milking the remaining ones with this "make getting something through regular gameplay stupefyingly boring, and then offer it in the cash store", why not make the game more fun and accessible and increase the player base 2-4 times? No need to milk players then. Or at least milk them in a more graceful way - with vanity items, for example.

As far as graceful milking goes, CCP could take a cue from Blizzard. They made an obscene amount of money offering things like faction change, race change, virtual ponies, etc. I mean, just off the top of my head: exotic dancers for captain's quarters. NEX store, $19 each or three for a $49. You KNOW tons of people would buy it. Boom, money! Development time? Minimal. And no need to change gameplay elements and introduce even more Pay2Win into the game that already has too much of it.

Next - race and sex changes. In this sci-fi universe with cloning, it makes perfect sense even lore-wise. Worried about people escaping the consequences of their actions by changing their sex (and thus the name)? Don't be, because they can do this already - just buy a new character in the Bazaar, and nobody will know who you are. The mechanic already exists. Etc., etc.

It's just funny to me that in a game claiming actions have consequences, there are LESS actual consequences than in much-maligned WoW as long as you're willing to fork over some $$$. Simple example from the first expansion (which is where I quit that game): you have to choose to side with Aldor faction or the Scryers. You choose Scryers on a whim, not realizing they're filthy Blood Elves. But by the time you find out, you're +3,000 standing with them, and -6,000 with the Aldor. Your actions had consequences. And yes, you can use tags to recover your standing. And like in EVE, someone has to farm those tags. BUT unlike in EVE you can't buy gold! You have to earn the gold or farm the tags yourself. Both are time-consuming and challenging. Either way, your choice will have SIGNIFICANT consequences that you can't buy your way out of by whipping out your credit card. And this is "carebear WoW where everything is meaningless"? Please!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2013-04-27 14:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Yes, it has to be acquired first, but the major issue is that these tags are not "soulbound" or "bind-on-pickup". Ergo this means that players will find them and decide to put them on the market instead. And then we come to the major flaw in the system. Because these tags will be available on the market, this means that players that have not done any grinding of sec whatsoever, can avoid any penalty in relation to sec status.
That's not a flaw. That's the entire point: subject sec status grinding to market forces. It's the EVE way (in much the same way as binding items is something that should never ever happen in EVE because it's such a horrible idea).

What they're doing is offering another service to trade between players. It's exactly how it should be handled.

Oh, and the italicised part is 100% untrue. The penalty is still there and it must be paid. You're just given a choice how to pay it; you choose what kind of penalty you want to suffer. They've simply changed from a choice between “time (grinding rats) or outlaw status”, to a choice between “time (grinding tags), time (grinding ISK), time (given to another player so they can grind), or outlaw status”.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-04-27 14:56:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Oh, and the italicised part is 100% untrue. The penalty is still there and it must be paid. You're just given a choice how to pay it; you choose what kind of penalty you want to suffer. They've simply changed from a choice between “time (grinding rats) or outlaw status”, to a choice between “time (grinding tags), time (grinding ISK), time (given to another player so they can grind), or outlaw status”.


I've edited my post and clarified the argument. My point remains valid, please read it again and you'll understand better (hopefully).
Kharamete
Royal Assent
#51 - 2013-04-27 14:59:48 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So essentially certain players will be able to pay CCP and get rid of the consequences of their actions against other players.
No.


1. Lose sec status, suffer consequences
2. Buy PLEX
3. Sell PLEX for ISK
4. Buy tags with ISK
5. Buy sec status with tags, get rid of consequences
6. Back to 1

Yes.


Someone still has to farm the tags. You're only moving the burden somewhere else. If nobody farms the tags, there will be no tags.

Just like you probably don't mine every mineral for your ship. You just buy it off the market. Does your reasoning mean that you pay to win when you buy a ship?

CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

My little youtube videos can be found here
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2013-04-27 15:01:39 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
I've edited my post and clarified the argument. My point remains valid, please read it again and you'll understand better (hopefully).
I understood it perfectly the first time, and it remains as incorrect as it was then.

The penalty must still be paid. No ifs, no buts, no escape. Setting a market price to sec status is not a flaw — it's a solution (and very much in line with EVE's overall design).
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#53 - 2013-04-27 15:12:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
I've edited my post and clarified the argument. My point remains valid, please read it again and you'll understand better (hopefully).
I understood it perfectly the first time, and it remains as incorrect as it was then.

The penalty must still be paid. No ifs, no buts, no escape. Setting a market price to sec status is not a flaw — it's a solution (and very much in line with EVE's overall design).


Using price as a metric of balance will only fail. In the same way supers where said to be scarce due to the exorbitant price, though the NC War and current use begs the differ. Grinding at least acted as a punishment for going blinky, however now with how easy isk is to acquire, it will no longer be much of a deterrent.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2013-04-27 15:19:51 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Using price as a metric of balance will only fail. In the same way supers where said to be scarce due to the exorbitant price, though the NC War and current use begs the differ. Grinding at least acted as a punishment for going blinky, however now with how easy isk is to acquire, it will no longer be much of a deterrent.
…until it turns out that the tags go for half a bil each because everyone is so undeterred by the lack of punishment that no-one thinks about actually doing the time connected to the crime.

They're not really using price as a metric — they're using market forces to determine how much time is worth, and both of those are player-decided. It's not intended to make people not lose sec — it's intended to let people decide how much losing sec is actually worth. The game itself just puts a floor in with the base cost for each step. It's sandboxy as hell! Lol
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-04-27 15:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Tippia wrote:
I understood it perfectly the first time, and it remains as incorrect as it was then.

The penalty must still be paid. No ifs, no buts, no escape. Setting a market price to sec status is not a flaw — it's a solution (and very much in line with EVE's overall design).


And here was I hoping you would understand it. Alright... For those that need more words to have it sink in properly.

If "Setting a market price to sec status" happens... Then

Players can increase their sec status the old way, or use the market (new way). I'm sure we both agree on that.

Ok next point: The old way involved time. Some consider it a boring grind, but it works the way it is supposed to. You did something bad in high-sec or low-sec, you endure the consequences.

The new way: assume that the player in question has extra money available. Others have farmed the tokens and sell them on the market. The player did something bad and has a negative sec status. Now the consequence of that is that this player no longer needs to devote time to get his status back. It has been done for him. He merely has to buy the tokens and be done with it. I am sure you understand that the wealthier the individual, the less the sec status actually means to him. After all, if it gets too low, just buy a few more tokens and he can gank again. Because of the fact that players can buy plexes from CCP for real money, all they need to do is covert them into ISK and use that to buy the tokens.

What part of this model in which the only variable is real life money don't you understand? This player can gank all year long if he chooses to spend thousands of dollars. And he never has to grind any sec rating. He circumvents any penalty of time being needed to improve sec status. That is the flaw: The rich can "pay to win".
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-04-27 15:30:13 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
What worries me about this new Tags4Sec system is that it essentially removes consequences in a Pay2Win kind of way.

Simple example:

Bob pays $15 a month for EVE (bare-bones sub). Bob does some bad things, tanks his sec status. He now faces 40 hrs of grind to recover his sec status. But because Bob has wife, kids, mortgage and health problems, he can only afford $15/mo on EVE.

Tim pays $115 a month for EVE (sub + 5x PLEX, which translates into say 2.5 billion ISK). Tim does the same bad things, alongside with bob, and tanks his sec status in an identical way. Tim forks over a billion or two ISK for some tags (farmed by semi-bot and/or multi-boxers in 2nd and 3rd world countries who need to make ISK for PLEX to be able to afford to keep playing) and recovers instantly. He can do this several times a month. As such, for him, the consequences of a sec status loss are meaningless.

With these changes, CCP might as well just remove the security status of each player altogether. Wealthy players will just buy their way out of trouble, something poorer players (either ISK-wise or real-life) will be unable to do. Pay2Win at its finest.



Change a few words and this has been true all along. Tim has been able to buy plex to fund his PVP ships to keep doing bad things while Bob has to grind the isk to pay for his ships.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2013-04-27 15:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
And here was I hopeing you would understand it.
Good news: I did. You're confusing “understand” with “agree”. I understand that you believe that something is the same as nothing; I don't agree with it.

The simple fact remains: the penalty is the same as ever and still has to be paid. Just because you can choose to pay in new ways does not mean that payment is no longer due. If anything, the cost of payment will probably increase…

Quote:
Now the consequence of that is that this player no longer needs to devote time to get his status back.
…instead, he has to devote time to get his ISK up to get his status back. Alternatively, as with all things ISK-related, he can out-source the ISK generation by giving some of his play-time to other players, so they can devote that time to get his ISK up to get his status back.

Quote:
What part of this model in which the only variable is real life money don't you understand? This player can gank all year long if he chooses to spend thousands of dollars. And he never has to grind any sec rating. He circumvents any penalty of time being needed to improve sec status.
No. If he circumvented all penalties, he wouldn't have to spend any time or money at all. Since the penalty has to be paid — just like before — he's not circumventing anything.

Again: all they're doing is adding another service that players can trade between them; they're decoupling the locus of “doing the time” from the the aftermath of “doing the crime”; they're letting players set a price on punishment. At no point is the punishment being removed — it's just being moved around.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-04-27 15:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Tippia wrote:
instead, he has to devote time to get his ISK up to get his status back.


Yes, but he can also choose to avoid any time requirement by simply buying plex from CCP and covert that into ISK. What part of this do you not understand? Jeez,

We agree that everything remains the same. We agree that time is still needed to get the sec status back one way or the other. Except that you do not seem to realize that a rich player with lots of $$$ on his bank account can just buy his way to gank again. And what is then the time-requirement? That's right, the time he spends in real life earning his wage to be able to support his gameplay in EVE. And what the hell does a paycheck have to do with how powerful you are in EVE? Nothing. Players are strong through experience, through skill, through working together and accomplish things. Players should never ever be powerful just because they have the ability (and stupidity) to buy their way to greatness due to a very healthy bank account.

What do you think will happen with something like Hulkageddon, mmm? The best ganker wins? Hah! No... it's gonna be the richest player in real life that competes wins.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-04-27 15:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Yes, but he can also choose to avoid any time requirement by simply buying plex from CCP and covert that into ISK. What part of this do you not understand?
What part of “I understood it perfectly the first time” don't you understand? Try reading the rest of the post (and the rest of the ones that preceded it).

No penalties are being circumvented. Alternatively, by your logic, all penalties are already being circumvented, so this addition makes no difference whatsoever.

Quote:
Players should never ever be powerful just because they have the ability (and stupidity) to buy their way to greatness due to a very healthy bank account.
Good news: they can't.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#60 - 2013-04-27 15:58:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:


No penalties are being circumvented. Alternatively, by your logic, all penalties are already being circumvented, so this addition makes no difference whatsoever.
.


Its mostly switching the penalties from time/effort to income. Not all income in Eve is active or requires "grinding", actually the most lucrative incomes are pretty passive.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden