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Mining payoff - nullsec vs. highsec
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Nifter Telfo
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-04-26 12:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Nifter Telfo
ABC ores aren't as profitable because null sec has become so safe. It's simply in high supply at the moment. Bring back conflict and profits will go up.

I don't think that bringing trit/pyer/etc to null sec is a good idea. It would flat out make null sec better for mining in all respects and it would reduce high sec mining to horrible levels of revenue. Given the large amount of players that actively engage in mining as one of the few available high sec social activities, this would be a bad move. Social activities are entertaining and keep people playing. If folks start making half as much ISK during those activities, then they will look for alternatives -- solo missions. For most people, solo play would quickly end in an unsubscribed account.

Reducing the m3 of the ABC ores is also against design philosophy of null sec and would simply lower its price even further. High end materials require jump freighters instead of Itty Vs to be profitable, giving a purpose to these expensive ships, as well as forcing group activity for logistical purposes. This would also simply increase the supply, which would drive the price even lower. Given that the high end ores probably (not an industrialist) make up a tiny amount of the material associated with ships, you might even end up with an oversupply, meaning less revenue per hour.

EDIT: spelling
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-04-26 12:41:46 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
No. Apparently, people mine mercoxit well enough to devalue it.

Althought its also found in WH and else where, people in null sec seem to make more than enough of it to sell it to hi-sec to make it less profitable than mining hi-sec ores.

I suppose if you got everyone outside of hi-sec to stop mining it, then the price would go back up, but I doubt you would ever get that to happen.
From what I've seen, in WH space rocks are what you chew on when you've run out of other WHers and sleepers to kill and gas to suck. Mercoxit, when we see any, is of some interest, the rest... not really (when it's down to mining we take the merc, if any, and the Ark, and then unless really lacking anything else to do, log off).
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-04-26 13:06:22 UTC
Nifter Telfo wrote:
ABC ores aren't as profitable because null sec has become so safe. It's simply in high supply at the moment. Bring back conflict and profits will go up.

I don't think that bringing trit/pyer/etc to null sec is a good idea. It would flat out make null sec better for mining in all respects and it would reduce high sec mining to horrible levels of revenue. Given the large amount of players that actively engage in mining as one of the few available high sec social activities, this would be a bad move. Social activities are entertaining and keep people playing. If folks start making half as much ISK during those activities, then they will look for alternatives -- solo missions. For most people, solo play would quickly end in an unsubscribed account.

Reducing the m3 of the ABC ores is also against design philosophy of null sec and would simply lower its price even further. High end materials require jump freighters instead of Itty Vs to be profitable, giving a purpose to these expensive ships, as well as forcing group activity for logistical purposes. This would also simply increase the supply, which would drive the price even lower. Given that the high end ores probably (not an industrialist) make up a tiny amount of the material associated with ships, you might even end up with an oversupply, meaning less revenue per hour.

EDIT: spelling

ABC ores were at the top of the profit lists prior to all the changes I listed. Null sec has been "safe" far longer than that.

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Dave Stark
#44 - 2013-04-26 13:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Nifter Telfo wrote:
ABC ores aren't as profitable because null sec has become so safe. It's simply in high supply at the moment. Bring back conflict and profits will go up.
no it isn't. look at the volume mined in null vs high.

Nifter Telfo wrote:
Given the large amount of players that actively engage in mining as one of the few available high sec social activities, this would be a bad move.
given that mining is the most antisocial activity in the game, i disagree.
Asmodai Xodai
#45 - 2013-04-26 15:22:44 UTC
I don't know what you folks see, and would be interested in hearing it. But I can tell you that I haven't seen a single miner, or mining operation, in my area since moving to nullsec. Not even a single lone miner.

Anyone know why the volume per unit is so huge for these nullsec ores?
Bolow Santosi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-04-26 15:35:33 UTC
Nifter Telfo wrote:
ABC ores aren't as profitable because null sec has become so safe. It's simply in high supply at the moment. Bring back conflict and profits will go up.


You know the cool thing about Nullsec, is that you can generate your own conflict without having to futz about with War Decs.

If you think some dude in Deklein is too safe, go fly up there in a stealth bomber and harass them.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2013-04-26 15:40:27 UTC
Nifter Telfo wrote:
ABC ores aren't as profitable because null sec has become so safe. It's simply in high supply at the moment. Bring back conflict and profits will go up.

wrong, wrong, wrong

the reason is bottlenecking caused by the removal of drone alloys creating an inbalance in favor of empire
Dave Stark
#48 - 2013-04-26 15:44:31 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
I don't know what you folks see, and would be interested in hearing it. But I can tell you that I haven't seen a single miner, or mining operation, in my area since moving to nullsec. Not even a single lone miner.

Anyone know why the volume per unit is so huge for these nullsec ores?



when was the last time you probed down a grav site in an industry 3+ system and warped to it to see if any one was mining in it?
that's where the miners will be.

the size is probably arbitrary choice. it doesn't massively impact upon mining as an activity besides a slight truncation issue.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2013-04-26 16:02:25 UTC
turns out most bots are miners, who would have guessed (everyone)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-04-26 16:03:55 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
turns out most bots are miners, who would have guessed (everyone)

i don't disagree with the sentiment but the largest proportion of bots are miners
Din Chao
#51 - 2013-04-26 16:16:03 UTC
I'm probably totally off, since I don't do industry, but I thought the major advantage of "null ores" was that once refined, the minerals were worth way more per m3, making transport easier and more profitable.
Dave Stark
#52 - 2013-04-26 16:27:30 UTC
Din Chao wrote:
I'm probably totally off, since I don't do industry, but I thought the major advantage of "null ores" was that once refined, the minerals were worth way more per m3, making transport easier and more profitable.


yeah they're worth more isk/m3 when refined, but you don't mine refined minerals. so that isk/m3 ratio is completely irrelevant, really.
Din Chao
#53 - 2013-04-26 16:32:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Din Chao wrote:
I'm probably totally off, since I don't do industry, but I thought the major advantage of "null ores" was that once refined, the minerals were worth way more per m3, making transport easier and more profitable.


yeah they're worth more isk/m3 when refined, but you don't mine refined minerals. so that isk/m3 ratio is completely irrelevant, really.

Irrelevant to the miner, yes. But not the guy moving his minerals to Jita to sell.
Dave Stark
#54 - 2013-04-26 16:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Din Chao wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Din Chao wrote:
I'm probably totally off, since I don't do industry, but I thought the major advantage of "null ores" was that once refined, the minerals were worth way more per m3, making transport easier and more profitable.


yeah they're worth more isk/m3 when refined, but you don't mine refined minerals. so that isk/m3 ratio is completely irrelevant, really.

Irrelevant to the miner, yes. But not the guy moving his minerals to Jita to sell.


and this is a thread about mining. not hauling.
also it's just irrelevant to any one, the hauler is only interested in the total value and the total m3, not the ratio of isk to m3.
Din Chao
#55 - 2013-04-26 16:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Din Chao
Dave Stark wrote:
also it's just irrelevant to any one, the hauler is only interested in the total value and the total m3, not the ratio of isk to m3.

That's the same thing...
Dave Stark
#56 - 2013-04-26 16:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Din Chao wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
also it's just irrelevant to any one, the hauler is only interested in the total value and the total m3, not the ratio of isk to m3.

That's the same thing...


what?

unless you have 1m3 of a mineral worth 1isk, total m3, total isk, and isk/m3 will all be different numbers.
Din Chao
#57 - 2013-04-26 16:48:18 UTC
You're right, a hauler is much better off making 30 jumps with an Itty full of Trit than an Itty full of Megacyte...
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-04-26 16:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
Dave Stark wrote:

no, nullsec ores not being worth it is the problem. look at spod and gneiss.

it makes perfect sense to mine low end ores in 0.0, because they're still worth more than spod and gneiss. the issue is that veld, pyrox, and plagi simply do not exist in large grav sites. there isn't any to mine, even if you want to.

i honestly don't think you grasp the nature of the problem.


So tell me why would you mine scordite in 0.0 when you can mine it in highsec, in complete safety, with 50% base refining value, and make the same amount of money.

Moreover there's no need to mine lowend in 0.0, thanks to mineral compression.

If I mine in 0.0, I go for arkonor or for other lowsec minerals, otherwise it's not worth the effort.

Lowend ores are anyway present in normal belts and roids can be considerably bigger than highsec ones, so I think it's you that don't know what are you talking about.
Dave Stark
#59 - 2013-04-26 16:49:37 UTC
Din Chao wrote:
You're right, a hauler is much better off making 30 jumps with an Itty full of Trit than an Itty full of Megacyte...


if he's building something with trit, rather than megacyte, then yes he is.
Dave Stark
#60 - 2013-04-26 16:52:17 UTC
Camios wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

no, nullsec ores not being worth it is the problem. look at spod and gneiss.

it makes perfect sense to mine low end ores in 0.0, because they're still worth more than spod and gneiss. the issue is that veld, pyrox, and plagi simply do not exist in large grav sites. there isn't any to mine, even if you want to.

i honestly don't think you grasp the nature of the problem.


So tell me why would you mine scordite in 0.0 when you can mine it in highsec, in complete safety, with 50% base refining value, and make the same amount of money.

Moreover there's no need to mine lowend in 0.0, thanks to mineral compression.

If I mine in 0.0, I go for arkonor or for other lowsec ores, otherwise it's not worth the effort.

Lowend ores are anyway present in normal belts and roids can be considerably bigger than highsec ones, so I think it's you that don't know what are you talking about.


why would i mine scordite in 0.0? for the same reason i mine the 2m isk/jetcan ores in 0.0. to flip the grav site.

considering you just displayed no idea how a null sec grav site works, it's hypocritical of you to tell any one they don't know what they're talking about. if you did know what you were talking about, you wouldn't have asked me why i would mine scordite in 0.0.