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You know how some people like to claim most PVP happens in hisec?
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#41 - 2013-04-25 20:48:45 UTC
You know how people like to post about arguments that never actually happen, they just say they do?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2013-04-25 20:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well we don't have any proof that null sec has to import its goods from hi-sec other than null sec members saying they have to.

Can you post a link with imperical data proving to me that the majority of goods in null sec were manufactured in hi-sec?

It's been empirically demonstrated several times in threads regarding nullsec vs. highsec manufacturing capability that even if all of our slots were used to produce ammunition it still wouldn't be enough to cover our needs. Then there's also the fact that many systems in highsec are capable of outproducing entire well-developed regions in nullsec (there were some systems in The Forge for example that are capable of outproducing Tribute, for example). These are just some of many facts uncovered and supported by empiric data in such threads. It's not my responsibility to dig them out for you.

You made an assertion. I demonstrated that the assertion wasn't supported by the premises.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-04-25 21:06:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well we don't have any proof that null sec has to import its goods from hi-sec other than null sec members saying they have to.

Can you post a link with imperical data proving to me that the majority of goods in null sec were manufactured in hi-sec?

It's been empirically demonstrated several times in threads regarding nullsec vs. highsec manufacturing capability that even if all of our slots were used to produce ammunition it still wouldn't be enough to cover our needs. Then there's also the fact that many systems in highsec are capable of outproducing entire well-developed regions in nullsec (there were some systems in The Forge for example that are capable of outproducing Tribute, for example). These are just some of many facts uncovered and supported by empiric data in such threads. It's not my responsibility to dig them out for you.


If there were a thousand threadnaughts of EVE players saying that the earth is 6000 years old, it doesn't make it true.

At this point its hard to say if I am trolling.... Maybe. Maybe not.

Even if were true, why so mad that you have to import stuff? Why not use a high-sec alt to make all your goods? If that isn't feasible, surely the CSM owned mostly by the Null sec alliances would have raised this issue by now? Why hasn't CCP addressed the lack of manufacturing in POS setups then?

Then again as I support WH manufacturing I see no problem in increasing POS manufacturing output in general.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-04-25 22:31:18 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
If there were a thousand threadnaughts of EVE players saying that the earth is 6000 years old, it doesn't make it true.

If there were empiric data in support of this assertion without any to the contrary, then yes it does.
That's the case here.

Captain Tardbar wrote:
Even if were true, why so mad that you have to import stuff? Why not use a high-sec alt to make all your goods?

If you don't understand why this is a problem with game balance then I can't help you.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-04-25 22:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Georgina Parmala
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Even if were true, why so mad that you have to import stuff? Why not use a high-sec alt to make all your goods? If that isn't feasible, surely the CSM owned mostly by the Null sec alliances would have raised this issue by now? Why hasn't CCP addressed the lack of manufacturing in POS setups then?

Then again as I support WH manufacturing I see no problem in increasing POS manufacturing output in general.

Because players who identify themselves as a Null Player dread the fact they have to create a High Sec alt to do industry and then haul the stuff in. Why shouldn't they be able to play where they want to live?

If the increased manufacturing capacity was added to the POS, why would Null residents put this POS where it can be easily attacked, instead of throwing it up in a high sec alt corp under CONCORD's protection?

Why is CONCORD protecting the NULL industrial backbone from attack not only at no charge, but with benefits?

Edit: If you read the threadnaught in question as you claim, how come any of this is news to you?

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-04-25 22:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If you don't understand why this is a problem with game balance then I can't help you.


I'm just saying if this perceived problem was such a great issue, why hasn't it been addressed yet? I mean I've seen countless threadnaughts saying that null-sec must have greater output, but I've seen little inclination of CCP to change this current situation.

I mean there are inclinations to update how POS setups function, but if there was such a great burdern of proof that there is this great and unholy imbalance of industries, why hasn't CCP addressed it yet?

Surely POS output could be increased across the board for everyone, but I've seen little information to suggest this will happen.

Or could it be that the status quo is just acceptable? Is that what grinds your gears?

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2013-04-25 22:49:31 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I'm just saying if this perceived problem was such a great issue, why hasn't it been addressed yet? I mean I've seen countless threadnaughts saying that null-sec must have greater output, but I've seen little inclination of CCP to change this current situation.

There's an awful lot that CCP fails to address. You must be new here.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2013-04-25 22:53:04 UTC
I mean no offense to anyone but If I were looking at it from a simple world design perspective, EVE as a whole, shouldn't null sec have to import goods to satisfy many of their needs? It's a lawless frontier ruled by warring player clans away from the civilized faction space and the acquisition of resources and commodities is part of the challenge in living there. You are not the mighty Amarr Empire nor even the lowly Minmatar in the grand scheme of things no matter how big and powerful you think you are. Hubris can run rampant but null sec’s designed niche remains. It's a shame you can use "alts" so easily for transport rather than needing to contract outside with other players and form better networks. I say that out of a sense of involving more players in the jobs of EVE rather than a reliance on bots and alts so much internally. Why should null ever be entirely self sufficient? This isn't a MOBA it's a galactic sim and its not your role to be so...
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-04-25 22:53:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I'm just saying if this perceived problem was such a great issue, why hasn't it been addressed yet? I mean I've seen countless threadnaughts saying that null-sec must have greater output, but I've seen little inclination of CCP to change this current situation.

There's an awful lot that CCP fails to address. You must be new here.


I'm just saying, if the disparity was as godawful as some claim it to be, something would be done about it.

Let's put it this way.... When CCP fixes POS output, I'll say it was probaly a good idea, but if they aren't changing it now, they have a good reason not too.

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-04-25 23:12:14 UTC
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-04-25 23:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Benny Ohu wrote:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2011/nullsec-board-for-blog.jpg


I'm sure they'll get around to it when they finish "Walking in Stations".

[edit]

And secondly, why do all of you get so upset when some one says Null sec shouldn't have industry when you apparently have indirect proof that it will happen anyways?

Are you so unsure of your goals that your afraid that a forum post will change CCP's mind and go " Well, giving null sec more industry was a bad idea after all. Nevermind!".

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-04-25 23:27:15 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
You apparently missed a number of threadnaughts concerning Null industry capacity. Where there were individuals making such claims, defending High Sec's need for superior industrial capacity.

Of course, ISK value is not an accurate metric to show this, since that's not exactly related to production slots.


I've never seen such arguments despite reading over a few threadnaughts.

What I did see is that the complaint was that Nullsec has to rely on hi-sec for its manufacturing capabilities as Nullsec could never possibly supply itself with current manufacturing capability.

Overall, I would suspect hi-sec has a much higher total numbers of ships lost, but the ships lost are of much lesser value as no one is strutting around in Titans, dreadnaughts, and carriers whereas Nullsec has ships of much higher value.

Seeing that Nullsec can produce such goods, maybe its not as bad off as people make it out to be.


Thats where you tend to fall of the rails. You make the assumption that capital and super capital kills are somehow the driving force behind the numbers and because those things CAN be produced in null, there is no problem.

A cursory look at EVE kill or any other general killboard will show you that it's tech2 ship (crusiers and frigs mostly) kills followed by tech1 battleship and battlecruiser kills (and a generous sprinking of tech3 kills) that drives the higher isk vaule numbers of null sec. With 3% of high sec's overall industrial capacity (despite 10 years of development by null sec player alliances), null sec litterally CAN'T supply the numbers of ships needed for null warfare, and this in turn keeps null sec player groups enslaved to High Sec industrialists.

Capital ships are an element, but only a small one. Sub-caps truly rule null sec pvp, caps are jsut the flashy glory hounds. The vast majority of null sec characters can't even fly super capital ships.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-04-25 23:46:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thats where you tend to fall of the rails. You make the assumption that capital and super capital kills are somehow the driving force behind the numbers and because those things CAN be produced in null, there is no problem.

A cursory look at EVE kill or any other general killboard will show you that it's tech2 ship (crusiers and frigs mostly) kills followed by tech1 battleship and battlecruiser kills (and a generous sprinking of tech3 kills) that drives the higher isk vaule numbers of null sec. With 3% of high sec's overall industrial capacity (despite 10 years of development by null sec player alliances), null sec litterally CAN'T supply the numbers of ships needed for null warfare, and this in turn keeps null sec player groups enslaved to High Sec industrialists.

Capital ships are an element, but only a small one. Sub-caps truly rule null sec pvp, caps are jsut the flashy glory hounds. The vast majority of null sec characters can't even fly super capital ships.


Maybe I've been going about this argument all wrong.

Maybe my argument should have been "It's not that there are less losses in hi-sec, its just null-sec players are just bad at the game and tend to die more in foolish ways and should have never undocked in the first place."

Hopefully that is inflammatory way to keep this discussion going.

I mean seriously, why all the losses? It means someone doesn't know how not to die.

Or that the hi-sec gankers aren't doing their job well enough.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-04-26 00:53:23 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Maybe I've been going about this argument all wrong.

Maybe my argument should have been "It's not that there are less losses in hi-sec, its just null-sec players are just bad at the game and tend to die more in foolish ways and should have never undocked in the first place."

Hopefully that is inflammatory way to keep this discussion going.

I mean seriously, why all the losses? It means someone doesn't know how not to die.

Or that the hi-sec gankers aren't doing their job well enough.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just trolling?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-04-26 01:09:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Are you really that stupid, or are you just trolling?


I have given you hints.

You are still replying to me... So what do you think?

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#56 - 2013-04-26 01:55:27 UTC
lol high sec pvp...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-04-26 02:13:15 UTC
Even when the facts are presented right to their face people are still butthurt and cry about it

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-04-26 02:15:11 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
considering the TINY % of players that live in WHs, it's not that surprising.
if you were looking at isk loss per kill, id be willing to be WHs would be top of the list.

Which goes to support the whole idea of wormhole space being a carebear haven.

wait what? that isnt even remotely what i said... >_<

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-04-26 02:22:31 UTC
You know how 'those' people are flamed relentlessly on the forums when they say that?

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-04-26 02:23:55 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
considering the TINY % of players that live in WHs, it's not that surprising.
if you were looking at isk loss per kill, id be willing to be WHs would be top of the list.

Which goes to support the whole idea of wormhole space being a carebear haven.

wait what? that isnt even remotely what i said... >_<

Meh nevermind, I don't feel like explaining it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)