These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

Concerning my recent loss
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aruena Clearwater
RedShift Tactical
#1 - 2013-04-25 00:17:29 UTC
Hello Eve community, how are you? Big smile

As stated in my topic name I am reaching out to you in search of guidance, tonight I lost my 1st ship, instant poped by a tornado even Big smileBig smile, however I am not sad or crying about it, it is part of Eve and I accepted that I might lose it the minute I undocked. I was in my little Iteron I one trying out some trading with fitted inertia stabilizers for quicker moving around, which was another mistake by my part since that only helped him lock me even faster cause of sig increase, dunno if that made big of a difference anyway, long story short I got instant poped at the gate. Even tough I did write so much about it its not the reason why I am here.

The reason I am here is because I would like some suggestions on how to improve myself for future excursions, is training for blockade runners gonna make me less gankable, I am not gonna say ungankable since I recon that is imposable, but safer at least? Maybe avoiding direct routes or getting into a ship and fitting it so that I am not that easily poped, I don't have any idea since I don't have any knowledge about how to protect myself from high sec ganking... Big smile

Best regards Aruena

P.S. I would like to avoid Orca or Freighters if possible since I find them to bulky and big to move around, I like something nifty, I don't like going afk. Smile
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#2 - 2013-04-25 00:24:19 UTC
What were you hauling?

Easiest way to avoid getting ganked when flying T1 industrials is not to carry more than 100mil worth of cargo.
Aruena Clearwater
RedShift Tactical
#3 - 2013-04-25 00:40:40 UTC
Bit more than that... got to greedy I guess... Big smile
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#4 - 2013-04-25 01:32:43 UTC
The main point to a BR is it's near impossible to lock before you cloak while aligning then warp before being de-cloaked. It is NOT in any way ungankable ofc, in fact it would only survive maybe 1-2 seconds of actual fire if fitted for max align time/MWD speed to burst out of bubbles. But it has ultra fast align time (which can be done while cloaked up) so it's very hard outside of warp bubbles to actually catch. Whether that is worth the training time for you or not is up to you.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/53428-039-Most-Correct-039-Viator-Fitting-I.html - The BEST way to fit a BR.

As for T1 haulers, the best you can do is add nothing to the ship that will increase sig radius, and anything that will boost agility/align time, there's an Implant for that also, EM-70x. You'd have some difficulty with the MWD-Cloak-Align option as even at max skills fitting a 10mn MWD is rough and 1mn won't get you far in one cycle after cloaking up. So there's a huge chance of getting de-cloaked before hitting high enough velocity to warp, and you sure aren't getting far from the spot you land on when jumping a gate even a 10mn MWD on a T1 Industrial.

Freighters get ganked even empty so that's a pretty dim outlook for such a long training que. A very well tanked Orca is actually a quite nice option and this summer's expansion is reducing the time to sit in an Orca to just short of 18 days. Of course it's still going to be expensive if you get popped, but at least it gives you more choices.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Wolfgang von Wolfhausen
FooFreighters
#5 - 2013-04-25 02:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolfgang von Wolfhausen
Welcome to the game! Hauling was the first thing I got into when I started a few months ago, and it won't be long before you're making millions (or hundreds of millions) per trip once you learn how to find deals.

Here are some tips (a few of which I learned the hard way) about hauling with a T1 indy:

1a) As a rule of thumb never, ever, ever put more than 100 mil of cargo in there for every 10,000 EHP of your tank. Reason being is that a gank Tornado costs about 100 mil ISK, and can do at least around 10,000 alpha (the first volley) before CONCORD arrives. T1 indys are gank magnets because, as you found out, it's easy to get greedy and not be aware of the mechanics of tanking and risk/reward gaming that gankers rely on. You usually won't be able to push your indy much past 20k-25k EHP, so generally don't haul more than 200 mil at most.

1b) But if someone really wants to gank you, they will anyway (search for MiniLuv stories). Don't fly/haul what you can't afford to lose. It's a long climb back up if you lose 80% of your total wallet in one gank.

2) Learn about safe-undocks and bookmark one outside of every station you trade at, especially major hubs.

3) NEVER haul PLEX until you know what you're doing. Not even once.

4) Don't even think about taking shortcuts through lowsec in an indy. Avoid the Rancer system at all times. Period.

5) If the profit seems too good to be true, it is. Look up "margin trade scam" to find out more.

6) Don't focus so much on making ISK via hauling that you stop enjoying the game. You'll burn yourself out, and there are a ton of ways to make equal or much greater amounts of ISK that are far less time-consuming.

*More Advanced*

7) If you do train for a blockade runner (which are fantastic), don't forget that even though a gate camp may not be able to target you on the system in-gate, they may have buddies smart-bombing the out-gate. I lost an embarrassing amount of ISK this way.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#6 - 2013-04-25 05:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
You are at your most vulnerable on undock, even if you have insta-warp undock bookmarks set up.

You are invulnerable for a short while after undocking if you don't click anything. If there is something nasty loitering just Ctrl+Space to stop your ship and redock.

If you want to carry large amounts of ISK you should consider a covops scout.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-04-25 05:41:22 UTC
Zappity wrote:
You are at your most vulnerable on undock, even if you have insta-warp undock bookmarks set up.

You are invulnerable for a short while after undocking if you don't click anything. If there is something nasty loitering just Ctrl+Space to stop your ship and redock.


That won't help if the gankers have a dedicated bumper, since you can be bumped even during the invulnerable phase. If you're bumped out of docking range, you've got a problem. That said, instant undock and absolute paranoia prevent the vast majority of potential ganks. :)
Aruena Clearwater
RedShift Tactical
#8 - 2013-04-25 07:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruena Clearwater
Thank you for the welcome, the quick response and thank you very much for all the info Big smileBig smile, I have already started training for BR, will take me around 2-3 weeks to train up, until then I will be honing my trading skills and setting up safe spots all over the Eve space to try and make me less gankable. Big smile

I looked up that BR fit from battleclinic that was linked and I realize that was made for null, low sec runs where bubbles are possible and could save your ship and it's cargo. What I am wondering is should something be changed if I plan on using it mainly in high sec hauling/trading?

Best regards

Aruena Big smile
Dave Stark
#9 - 2013-04-25 07:51:38 UTC
Aruena Clearwater wrote:
fitted inertia stabilizers

nanofibers are your friend.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-04-25 07:56:44 UTC
i scanned the longer replies and did not find the following important point of information: as of retribution, blockade runner cargo holds cannot be scanned. this means that as long as you don't **** off anyone, nobody will ever suicide gank you (unless they are feeling lucky).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Sian Ka'an
Pod Liberation Authority
#11 - 2013-04-25 07:57:58 UTC
Yes, swap the rigs to cargo hold optimizations and use expanded cargoholds in the low slots.
I like to always carry Inertia Stabs and Cargo Expanders, enough of each to cover all lowslots and arrange them depending on the cargo space required.
Aruena Clearwater
RedShift Tactical
#12 - 2013-04-25 08:05:31 UTC
Even more awesome info, thank you very much. Big smileBig smile All this is making me joyful. Big smile

Probably a silly question but just to be sure, if they scan you and you have a container in your hold does it tell them the contents of that container as well? Big smile

Best regards

Aruena
Sian Ka'an
Pod Liberation Authority
#13 - 2013-04-25 08:07:53 UTC
No, all they see on scan is the container, but none of its contents.
Aruena Clearwater
RedShift Tactical
#14 - 2013-04-25 08:08:37 UTC
Aw this is good news. Thank you for the quick response. Big smile

Best regards

Aruena
Smokey Pappotte
The Smokehouse
#15 - 2013-04-25 08:31:37 UTC
Hi i know you said to an orca but in my opinion it is still the best hs hauler it can acheive 220k ehp with a dcu2 and reinforced bulkheads so nearly ungankable and if you put a 100mwd on and give 1 cycle as you align from a gate it has a 10 sec align time which is equal to an iterion 5 so not that sluggish and ofc can carry lots more just my 2 cents fly safe
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-04-25 08:51:37 UTC
I think (I don't have first-hand experimental evidence, just hearsay) that the contents of containers in cargo can be scanned. One trick that people will use is to "double-wrap" a container, by using two successive courier contracts (courier contract your stuff to an alt, who then courier contracts the courier package back to you). Up-side: this gets around the scanners. Down-side: it's a red flag to gankers that you've got something in your cargohold that's worth the trouble.

Blockade runners have two additional advantages that haven't been brought up:

1) Their cargoholds are invulnerable to cargo scanners; nobody can tell if a BR is full up with shiny stuff or only carrying a few bits of scrap metal.
2) They're agile and fast; they naturally align more quickly than T1 industrials, and they warp at 9 AU per second, which outpaces everything except covert ops frigates and interceptors.

In fact, I routinely use a Viator-class BR when I'm travelling in hisec, just for the speed. I've only ever had trouble twice, both times in low-sec; once I got caught in a gate camp with sensor-boosted tackle, and once a station undock was camped by a blap Tornado being obscenely boosted by a Loki.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-04-25 08:54:28 UTC
There are three ways to increase your agility, each has a different drawback. The greatest agility increase is with the Inertial Stabilizer module, which comes at the cost of signature radius. The agility bonus is greater than the sig radius penalty, however. The second is with the Nanofiber Internal Structure module, which enhances both velocity and agility, and comes at the cost of hull hit points. This one is a poor choice for an Orca because hull hit points is mostly what they have. The third is the astronautic rigs Auxiliary Thrusters (velocity only), Low Friction Nozzle Joints (agility only), or Polycarbon Engine Housing (agility and velocity)--all of these reduce armor amount. Overdrive Injector is a low slot module that boosts max velocity at the cost of cargohold space, but that will not affect agility.

I'd like to share with you a bit of wisdom for fitting a gank tank. I have a special trick I like to use, which I have tested on the field and it has performed marvelously. At most, I have had a bestower survive 2 bombs and 5 torpedo volleys from a stealth bomber. The trick is to use EM and thermal hardeners on armor, and kinetic and explosive hardeners on shields. You will be capitalizing on the naturally high resistances these have. You'll want to fit probably 2 medium shield extenders and a 400mm armor plate. Damage control module is important, tech 2 makes a huge difference too! (Don't use metas, their high cost will make you more of a target)

To proof your tank, you can check it on EFT or PYFA for its effective hit points against common gank types of damage, or do the math yourself if that works for you. Here's the common gank damage types:

Tornado will use 1400mm artillery and has the strongest hit - 8,000-12,000 in a single volley:
* Fusion - 5 parts explosive and 1 part kinetic
* Phased Plasma - 8 parts thermal, 3 parts kinetic, 1 part explosive
* EMP - 9 parts EM, 1 part kinetic, 2 parts explosive
Fusion is easy to guard against, though it'll hit your shields which on an industrial are probably weaker. It's very difficult to get your industrial to the point where it can survive a good Tornado hit, but once you have got that, you're going to be a LOT safer. Best part is that Tornado gankers rarely check your fit but rather assume you can't take the hit. They might have destroyer friends around to finish you off though.

Oracle, Naga, or Talos can pump out 800+ dps which you must survive for up to 15 seconds before CONCORD kills them:
* Oracle-Conflagration - half EM, half thermal
* Naga/Talos-Void - half thermal, half kinetic

And you can use this in nullsec or wormhole space to guard against stealth bombers - they tend to use one damage type, both bomb and torpedoes. If you have 1-2 warp stabilizers and try to warp as soon as the SB arrives, you need only tank around 8000 damage from the bomb and maybe 2500 from a single torp volley. It's a lot easier when the damage is all one type. If the SB crosses damage types, they gimp their damage.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-04-25 09:15:44 UTC
Oh, and the Orca may be big and expensive, and look hideously sluggish at first glance, but it's a wonderful utility hauler, what with its ship maintenance bay capable of moving rigged ships (up to battlecruisers, even!), and the size of its multiple holds. It's about to become much easier to train into, as well; the two-week-plus train to Mining Barge V is about to be replaced with ORE Industrial III as a prerequisite (it's keeping the requirement for Mining Director I).

And like Smokey said above, with a 100MN microwarpdrive, the Orca will go into warp from a standing start in ten seconds; it can be set up to tank close to a quarter million EHP (the output of twenty Tornadoes!) with shield hardeners, a Damage Control II, and Reinforced Bulkheads II; it can be cargo-fitted to carry a packaged battleship (50,000 m3); and if you're willing to invest in a Large Ancillary Current Router and Tech-II Large Cargohold Optimization rigs, it can do all three at the same time.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Aruena Clearwater
RedShift Tactical
#19 - 2013-04-25 09:37:06 UTC
Aw this is lovely to have such an open community to helping newer players in their beginnings of eve exploration. Big smile I know I have said this many times in this thread but I have to say it again "Thank you". I will dare speak in the name of all the new players that want to try out this line of work, thank you all for sharing all this knowledge, wisdom and guidance that you got to trough information gathering, testing, fit theorizing and other ways that were necessary to get to the level where you stand now. Big smile

I hope this is helpful to others as it has been to me. Big smile

Best regards

Aruena
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-04-25 09:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Here are some example fits to whet your appetite. They all use tech 2 armor hardeners and damage control, tech 1 rigs, medium subordinate screen stabilizer I, and 400mm reinforced rolled tungsten armor plate, and have EHP calculated with my skills.

Bestower:
mids
* extender x2
* kinetic hardener
* explosive hardener
lows
* DC
* plate
* EM hardener
* thermal hardener
rigs
* kinetic shield
* thermal armor
* defense field extender

Effective hit points:
EM: 21,226
Thermal: 22,573
Kinetic: 23,210
Explosive: 21,223
Lasers: 21,778
Hybrids: 16,539 <---
EMP: 16,402 <---
Phased Plasma: 16,908 <---
Fusion: 21,525

The Bestower does poorly against mixed damage types due to its low number of modules. But it comes with a strong powergrid that can easily fit a lot of buffer hit points. This monster will survive bombs pretty easily.

Badger Mk II:
mids
* extender x2
* adaptive invulnerability
* thermal hardener
* kinetic hardener
* explosive hardener
lows
* DC
* plate
* EM hardener
rigs
* thermal armor x2
* defense field extender

Effective hit points:
EM: 21,837
Thermal: 27,418
Kinetic: 25,317
Explosive: 28,260
Lasers: 22,376
Hybrids: 24,525
EMP: 17,486 <---
Phased Plasma: 24,865
Fusion: 27,656

The Badger Mk II would be weak to lasers due to its skewed setup, but I put on the thermal armor rigs to thwart that, since the shields are strong enough without rigs. EMP is a problem because the EM damage will tear out the shields, and the explosive and kinetic will finish off the armor. There's not much you can do about it. But despite the Badger's large sig radius, it is still very formidable against bombers--watch out for Purifiers though.

Iteron Mk V:
mids
* extender x2
* EM hardener
* kinetic hardener
* explosive hardener
lows
* DC
* plate
* EM hardener
* thermal hardener
* kinetic hardener
rigs
* kinetic shield
* thermal shield
* thermal armor

Effective hit points:
EM: 27,172
Thermal: 26,491
Kinetic: 31,963
Explosive: 22,046 <---
Lasers: 26,791
Hybrids: 26,805
EMP: 22,733 <---
Phased Plasma: 23,656 <---
Fusion: 22,804 <---

The Iteron Mk V is the mother of all tanking industrials, as far as tech 1 goes anyway. I took the liberty of fitting an anti-EMP tank to this one because EMP is generally the best way to break this type of tank, and Tornado gankers might know that. It comes at the cost of explosive and phased plasma resist, but it can still take a lot of those, and this covers the defense hole. Do you see how I fit it for EMP tank? (EM hardeners for both shield and armor)

Mammoth:
mids
* extender x2
* thermal hardener
* kinetic hardener
* explosive hardener
lows
* DC
* plate
* EM hardener
* Thermal hardener
rigs
* thermal shield
* kinetic armor
* explosive armor

Effective hit points:
EM: 24,098
Thermal: 25,401
Kinetic: 20,470
Explosive: 21,629
Lasers: 21,701
Hybrids: 22,011
EMP: 18,377 <---
Phased Plasma: 23,048
Fusion: 21,354

The Mammoth is softer like the Bestower, but it has a slightly smaller sig radius and is able to fit a more even tank. I padded it somewhat against that nasty EMP without gimping anything else really. This ship should survive a gank pretty well.

Aruena Clearwater wrote:
I looked up that BR fit from battleclinic that was linked and I realize that was made for null, low sec runs where bubbles are possible and could save your ship and it's cargo. What I am wondering is should something be changed if I plan on using it mainly in high sec hauling/trading?
For highsec, tank it like these ^
Except put emphasis on align time and don't worry as much about EHP.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
123Next page