Player Features and Ideas Discussion

No change will come to cloaking because players disagree, that my friend is a fact. Another fact is that one side don't want a change so they keep disagreeing. As evident by a lack of cooperation. But again I digress since I have come to agree that the cloak is fine. It is the afk that is not.

You can contunie to guess what it is I do in EVE as mutch as you want. And to the rest...ok... tmi.

I guess it is easy to take the same side as the popular. As it is just as easy to come up with the same counterarguments again and again without any spec wanting to try and come up with a solution that can be worked on or trying to work with what is presented.

Cute videos, I do like South Park.

And to the "troll word", it is because we guessed, quite correctly, that botting would be one of the first counterarguments to why the solution might fail. Thought I didn't think it would come that quickly, and not from you.

But this is getting personal so lets stop, I can even let you have the final word if you so desire.

I think that it is really telling that the people in favor of nerfing cloaks are in noob corps (all 2 of them). I think the real title of this thread should be "a plan to make it so that my mining bot won't stay docked when someone is afk cloaked in system."

You don't honestly believe we don't understand your plan do you? It's not that complex. No, on the contrary we understand it perfectly, more than you do and how it would lead to absolutely secure null farming.

If expecting and recieving the obvious truth is shocking to you I don't know what to say. But rest assured in the next thread it will be rehashed, over and over again. The popular side isn't wrong because it's popular. It's popular because it's correct.

In much the same way the minority shouldn't always be catered to because the minority isn't always right.

You aren't getting a solution to your non existent problem because of the obvious but also because its the road to incrementalism which never stops and only steamrolls. Thankfully the majority of the community are capable of holding back the theatre of opposition by eloquent logic and diction.

Again if you are warping and changing your grid you reset the timer and thus they don't know you are there cloaked in your "hole"

You know darn well your opposition to this has nothing to do with keeping a hawk eye on a hulk for 8 hours. Its because you have been walking away from your computer for hours at a time cloaked. Deny this all you want.

It would force you to OH THE HORROR! Maybe watch Dscan for probes and OH NOES warp away for the 15-20 secs to warp to an off grid SS and back. You know for an active cloaker this does not break anything. It is just that you are in my opinion just like the countless others who through W and K space use this mechanic for 100 percent free safety and free effect while logged in.

Need to walk away its called logging off. Because if you diddnt have enough time to complete the kill in your "hole" to begin with then logging off will change nothing.

Also you can take advantage of that effect. If they see a cloaker appearing and then vanishing on dscan they will grow suspicious that someone is logged off in their area. Effect on your enemies! Of course if your goal is a shiny new "SOLO KILL" sticker that wont help you much.

You never even read what the problem is, did you? You're just regurgitating the same old drivel while ignoring the facts.

(Sorry Zim, that was for Endeavour. You snuck in on me there.)

I have read the issue. You worry about if a blip shows up they are going to go ape and adapt their tactics. That was the ONLY reason I amended the plan to include time on grid where you don't even show up as a blip. (Again targeting AFK here)

Everything else I read as an excuse to AFK.

If we're fair, the thought of warping back and forth just to remain undetected sounds a bit off to me. If anything, moving back and forth would make more noise, and make you more detectable.

That is, if we're looking at how subs operate.

Well, to be fair, old subs hide based on sound, whereas the cloak "bends light" or something. It could also be argued that a fully active ship would also emit some sort of noise, electronic or otherwise. However, that idea'll just make Ingvar get even more annoyed, so let's not go there shall we.

Zim is right when he says that cloaky intel isn't a very critical factor in major fleet ops in nullsec. Alts used to infiltrate enemy alliances via renters or pets are used to gether intel when large alliances/coalitions move to attack another region. A cloaker might be able to see a fleet's composition, but a spy can tell you if they have backup or not. And do all that reconnaissance stuff without the need of a cloak.

I think Ingvar touched upon a very strong point in his proposal thread; that the issue with cloaks isn't so much that they are undetectable but that they are able to gather instant information on their enemies while being undetectable, forcing the other null occupants into a reactive position. W-Space was designed with reactive occupants in mind - the rewards are high enough that regular gankings are surviveable, the nature of the PVE makes PVP fits more viable while maintaining a high level of profit and finally, once a threat is detected a w-space system is far more defensible then a nullsec system: you can simply collapse the hole that the roamer came from. This 'reactive quality' of wspace is probably why cloaking there is being described as 'integral' to the wormhole experience.

Contrast this with sov k-space. The chief source of income, anomalies, are only marginally better then level 4 missions in highsec and are balanced around the player using a PVE-exclusive loadout and are not designed around group profitability. Fleet ops in anomalies using PVP fits in sov null would generate so little that it would simply be more profitable to simply have a 'pve alt' in highsec and a 'pvp main' in null. And many do this. The other problem with a 'reactive stance' in sov null is that, excluding the presence of local, the ganker otherwise has tremendous advantages compared to w-space. The first, cynos, fairly soundly defeat the feasibility of a 'pve defense fleet'. The second are the static, non-collapsing nature of stargates. Kill a would-be cloaky ganker in a w-space system, collapse the hole he came from, and you're in the clear for a while. Kill would-be cloaky ganker in sov null and you've bought only the amount of time it takes for him to reship and reinsert himself into the system.

tl;dr: the problem isn't so much cloaks or local so much as sov null does not support a 'reactive playstyle' the way w-space does.

Personally, I think a solution that satisfies both standpoints is one that leaves cloaks untouched but alters their ability to use local, d-scan and/or communicate with probes while doing so.