These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Capital Rigs

First post First post
Author
Alexander McKeon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#341 - 2013-05-29 22:47:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The cost is about the same relative to the hull cost as all the other sizes with their T1 ships. Not for everyone, but that's fine.
The problem with that analysis is that it doesn't factor in the absolute cost of the rigs, which is going to be so high that carriers & dreads won't be able to use them unless the pilot is silly rich, which is an indirect nerf to those entire classes of ship. Those rigs are also (at least in my experience) primarily used on T2 versions of ships, where the relative cost of the rigs as compared to the T2 or T3 hull is reasonable, while T2 capital ships simply don't exist, resulting in the lack of a standard capital for which the price is affordable.

Let me ask this: is it your intention that, for practical purposes, T2 capital rigs will be solely fit on super-caps, and henceforth carriers & dreads will have almost exclusively T1 rigs?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#342 - 2013-05-29 23:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Sharon Tate wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The cost is about the same relative to the hull cost as all the other sizes with their T1 ships. Not for everyone, but that's fine.

Note true. Some rigs are, some rigs aren't...

He in fact entirely right, take note of the wording chosen "..about the same relative to the hull cost..".

You use trimarks as an example, have you looked at cost of medium trimark II's vs. cruiser hulls (factor 5+)? Or the utterly obscene cost of small trimark II's vs. the cost of frigates (factor 40+)?

We have always had to contend with ISK giving an advantage in the form of faction stuff and implants, the use T2 on T1 is not a human/fundamental right and due to the way the materials for them is gathered they are at an all time high at present simply because T2 hulls are in a craptastic place and will remain there until tiericide passes their way.
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
#343 - 2013-05-30 00:37:07 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

He in fact entirely right, take note of the wording chosen "..about the same relative to the hull cost..".

You use trimarks as an example, have you looked at cost of medium trimark II's vs. cruiser hulls (factor 5+)? Or the utterly obscene cost of small trimark II's vs. the cost of frigates (factor 40+)?

We have always had to contend with ISK giving an advantage in the form of faction stuff and implants, the use T2 on T1 is not a human/fundamental right and due to the way the materials for them is gathered they are at an all time high at present simply because T2 hulls are in a craptastic place and will remain there until tiericide passes their way.


It's a fair point, though it's a class of rigs that will see even more limited use. Frankly, the wildly differing cost of the salvage components is the real culprit here.

Frankly, the whole T2 rig use is completely borked anyway. There's so little that's either a) useful or b) cost effective. What will be entertaining to watch is the (lack of) volume of the T2 capital rig market post patch.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#344 - 2013-05-30 01:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sharon Tate wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
There will be T2 capital rigs. They are all on SISI now of you want to try them out or view stats.


Oh I looked, ran numbers, and promptly figured build costs for the interesting ones, and concluded that I can ignore T2 Capital Rigs because the cost is so disproportionate to the ship that no one besides titan pilots will ever actually use them.

So, you've basically added a class of modules that no one will use, and existing pilots with grandfathered rigs will have a significant advantage over new pilots.

Nice job. :(


The cost is about the same relative to the hull cost as all the other sizes with their T1 ships. Not for everyone, but that's fine.


Nobody puts T2 rigs on T1 ships. Lets compare between ships that actually use them:

Fancy Pirate BS hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Large Trimark = 390M isk
T2 Large CCC = 290M isk

Carrier hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Capital Trimark = 1.95B isk
T2 Capital CCC = 1.45B isk

Once again it seems like you guys rush a change in without much thought and without listening to community feedback. What you should have done was created captial rigs and supercapital rigs. What you are about to dump on us would have been appropriate as far as price/materials goes for supercapital rigs. Capital rigs should be maybe 2-2.5x the cost/materials of a large rig.

What sense does it make that a carrier would use the same size rig as a super/titan? There is a vast size/cost difference between those classes of ships.
Luc Chastot
#345 - 2013-05-30 01:59:44 UTC
I for one am glad that after all the Odyssey changes, cap ships will probably be less viable and thus less prevalent.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Callic Veratar
#346 - 2013-05-30 04:55:50 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Nobody puts T2 rigs on T1 ships. Lets compare between ships that actually use them:

Fancy Pirate BS hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Large Trimark = 390M isk
T2 Large CCC = 290M isk

Carrier hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Capital Trimark = 1.95B isk
T2 Capital CCC = 1.45B isk

Once again it seems like you guys rush a change in without much thought and without listening to community feedback. What you should have done was created captial rigs and supercapital rigs. What you are about to dump on us would have been appropriate as far as price/materials goes for supercapital rigs. Capital rigs should be maybe 2-2.5x the cost/materials of a large rig.

What sense does it make that a carrier would use the same size rig as a super/titan? There is a vast size/cost difference between those classes of ships.


So, what you're saying is that we need a Fancy Pirate Carrier Hull for about 4-5B isk?
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#347 - 2013-05-30 05:50:08 UTC
If you end up making a Jump range rig, add a Large version as well so Black ops can get some much needed attention.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#348 - 2013-05-30 07:40:30 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sharon Tate wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
There will be T2 capital rigs. They are all on SISI now of you want to try them out or view stats.


Oh I looked, ran numbers, and promptly figured build costs for the interesting ones, and concluded that I can ignore T2 Capital Rigs because the cost is so disproportionate to the ship that no one besides titan pilots will ever actually use them.

So, you've basically added a class of modules that no one will use, and existing pilots with grandfathered rigs will have a significant advantage over new pilots.

Nice job. :(


The cost is about the same relative to the hull cost as all the other sizes with their T1 ships. Not for everyone, but that's fine.


Nobody puts T2 rigs on T1 ships. Lets compare between ships that actually use them:

Fancy Pirate BS hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Large Trimark = 390M isk
T2 Large CCC = 290M isk

Carrier hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Capital Trimark = 1.95B isk
T2 Capital CCC = 1.45B isk

Once again it seems like you guys rush a change in without much thought and without listening to community feedback. What you should have done was created captial rigs and supercapital rigs. What you are about to dump on us would have been appropriate as far as price/materials goes for supercapital rigs. Capital rigs should be maybe 2-2.5x the cost/materials of a large rig.

What sense does it make that a carrier would use the same size rig as a super/titan? There is a vast size/cost difference between those classes of ships.


Carriers arn't fancy they are t1 hulls. So when you compare a t1 BS hull like say the megathron with a t2 rig it makes a lot more sense.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#349 - 2013-05-30 10:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
baltec1 wrote:
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sharon Tate wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
There will be T2 capital rigs. They are all on SISI now of you want to try them out or view stats.


Oh I looked, ran numbers, and promptly figured build costs for the interesting ones, and concluded that I can ignore T2 Capital Rigs because the cost is so disproportionate to the ship that no one besides titan pilots will ever actually use them.

So, you've basically added a class of modules that no one will use, and existing pilots with grandfathered rigs will have a significant advantage over new pilots.

Nice job. :(


The cost is about the same relative to the hull cost as all the other sizes with their T1 ships. Not for everyone, but that's fine.


Nobody puts T2 rigs on T1 ships. Lets compare between ships that actually use them:

Fancy Pirate BS hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Large Trimark = 390M isk
T2 Large CCC = 290M isk

Carrier hull = 1-1.2B isk
T2 Capital Trimark = 1.95B isk
T2 Capital CCC = 1.45B isk

Once again it seems like you guys rush a change in without much thought and without listening to community feedback. What you should have done was created captial rigs and supercapital rigs. What you are about to dump on us would have been appropriate as far as price/materials goes for supercapital rigs. Capital rigs should be maybe 2-2.5x the cost/materials of a large rig.

What sense does it make that a carrier would use the same size rig as a super/titan? There is a vast size/cost difference between those classes of ships.


Carriers arn't fancy they are t1 hulls. So when you compare a t1 BS hull like say the megathron with a t2 rig it makes a lot more sense.



I guess the point I was trying to make here is that by releasing a single capital class rig they are giving supers/titans a huge advantage in terms of rig price that no other ship in the game has. A fancy pirate BS can be T2 rigged for an amount near equal to its hull cost. Right now using large rigs a carrier pilot could do the same. If I wanted to T2 rig a T1 BS it's gonna cost 8-10x the hull cost.

After the capital rigs are introduced a carrier could be T2 rigged for 3-5x it's hull cost. However, a super can be T2 rigged for less than 1/3 of its hull cost. For a Titan the percentage is even smaller, like 1/6 hull cost. They will be the only two ship classes in the game that can be T2 rigged for a small fraction of the cost of the hull. Yes, it's less absurd than the current cost of large T2 rigs vs Titan/super hull cost, but the cost is still broken relative to other ships in the game. This seems like a rush job an not well thought out. Two classes of capital rigs should have been introduced and the T2 salvage drops needed to be buffed to help accommodate the absurd increase in materials requirements.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#350 - 2013-05-30 17:33:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The cost is about the same relative to the hull cost as all the other sizes with their T1 ships. Not for everyone, but that's fine.



I under stand what you are saying.

A Geddon is around 100 mill
A Redeemer is around 620

A Provi is around 1.4 billion
An Ark is around 6.4 billion

Now lets look at Rigs

T1 CCC for a capital around 60 million each
T2 CCC for a capital will be around 8 billion - Each

Same for T1 and T2 trimark

Power Circuits, Intact Armor plates, Cap consoles, Intact Shield Emitter and Single-Crystal I-Beams Everything in a military aspect uses one of those 5 components and they regulate T2 rigs.
They are the Technetium of rigs.

I don't think 'it's fine' that specific rig configurations are going to run in the 30 billion range and because there are 'cheaper rigs' that can be put together for 60 mill, even at the capital level, I don't see it happening. Unless we start building exploration carriers or E-War titans, most of those configurations are muck.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#351 - 2013-05-30 17:54:40 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:

Nobody puts T2 rigs on T1 ships.



You are right but not for the reasons you think.

I'd put T2 e-war on a Maulus. Ignore Jita prices on small Inverted signal field Projector rigs. They are inflated but it doesn't matter. Calibration is 300 per rig so I won't be putting one on anyway. Once you put all factors in place, we really don't have that much choice in what we rig our ships with.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Choridon Saissore
Doomheim
#352 - 2013-05-30 22:38:21 UTC
I dont know if anyone has responded to this question earlier & if so im very sorry :)

Say I have a dread with 3x large Aux nano pump rigged.

Will these modules that do not affect capital modules prior to oddy, affect them after the patch, or will they still be "useless" on the capital?

Same question with the Nanobot accelerator rig :)
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#353 - 2013-05-30 23:29:16 UTC
Ioci wrote:
...
T1 CCC for a capital around 60 million each
T2 CCC for a capital will be around 8 billion - Each...

Where on earth do you get those numbers? Smile

Capital rigs will be 5x the price of large rigs.
T1 Large CCC = 12M, times five yields your 60M.
T2 Large CCC = 200M, times five yields 1/8ths of your 8B ...

Can't even be explained away as a typo because 1 is in the other end of the number row .. even if you used a number pad the typo excuse dies in the crib.

There will be a slight increase in rig prices across the board due to higher consumption of capital rigs, but they since don't exactly die in droves it will probably barely be noticeable and it will drop a lot once tiericide has run its course and made T2 competitive again thus increasing material availability .. if all else fails, we will lobby CCP for increased drop rates in exploration and from salvaging.

Until then, you just have to get used to the idea that capitals are T1 ships and are subject to the same kind of "unfairness" that all non-capitals T1 pilots lives with on a daily basis .. if that thought/reality does not sit well with you then invest in a bunch of replacement capitals and rig them with large (ie. what everyone else is doing at the moment) as CCP are too daft to make the change properly and de-rig everything.

PS: The ~10% difference you get from a couple of T2 rigs over T1 has zero impact except in small scale fighting where winners are in flames after every fight .. with capitals not exactly renowned for those kind of engagement this whole debate is rather pointless.
Alexander McKeon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#354 - 2013-05-31 03:52:53 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
PS: The ~10% difference you get from a couple of T2 rigs over T1 has zero impact except in small scale fighting where winners are in flames after every fight .. with capitals not exactly renowned for those kind of engagement this whole debate is rather pointless.
When you can frequently bring an absolute maximum of three capitals to a particular fight, that little extra from T2 rigs can make a difference.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-05-31 14:39:03 UTC
I bet the T2 rigs still only need lv4 skill to use .. a bit odd anyone?? .. lv5 comes to mind here

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#356 - 2013-05-31 19:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ioci wrote:
...
T1 CCC for a capital around 60 million each
T2 CCC for a capital will be around 8 billion - Each...

Where on earth do you get those numbers? Smile

Capital rigs will be 5x the price of large rigs.
T1 Large CCC = 12M, times five yields your 60M.
T2 Large CCC = 200M, times five yields 1/8ths of your 8B ...

Can't even be explained away as a typo because 1 is in the other end of the number row .. even if you used a number pad the typo excuse dies in the crib.

There will be a slight increase in rig prices across the board due to higher consumption of capital rigs, but they since don't exactly die in droves it will probably barely be noticeable and it will drop a lot once tiericide has run its course and made T2 competitive again thus increasing material availability .. if all else fails, we will lobby CCP for increased drop rates in exploration and from salvaging.

Until then, you just have to get used to the idea that capitals are T1 ships and are subject to the same kind of "unfairness" that all non-capitals T1 pilots lives with on a daily basis .. if that thought/reality does not sit well with you then invest in a bunch of replacement capitals and rig them with large (ie. what everyone else is doing at the moment) as CCP are too daft to make the change properly and de-rig everything.

PS: The ~10% difference you get from a couple of T2 rigs over T1 has zero impact except in small scale fighting where winners are in flames after every fight .. with capitals not exactly renowned for those kind of engagement this whole debate is rather pointless.


It was based on the T1 numbers X 5 or 500% of current Large.

That number was in fact wrong. T1 use 72 Armor plates but T2 use 20 with the -4 to ME from R&D. So if the 500% for capital is applied, you will need 100 Intact Armor plates to make a T2 Trimark or 100 Cap Consoles for a CCC. Both are floating in te 20 mill each market so it will be 2 billion per rig in that component. Add in the other components that are glutted due to bottle necks on plates and CC, add in the datacores and base 60% success of Rigs with no base items, it will be around 8 to 10 billion to T2 Rig a capital CCC and or Trimark.

The trouble isn't that they want to make capital rigs, the trouble is the optic of rigs in the first place.

Rigs are Job enhancers. They make a ship do something better and none of them were designed to make a capital ship do capital ship jobs, better.

So you now have two points of issue. Why are some Job enhancers given priority over others with mechanical bottlenecks and if they want Capital rigs to be viable, they need to add rigs that actually enhance capital ship jobs.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#357 - 2013-06-01 08:23:05 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:


I guess the point I was trying to make here is that by releasing a single capital class rig they are giving supers/titans a huge advantage in terms of rig price that no other ship in the game has. A fancy pirate BS can be T2 rigged for an amount near equal to its hull cost. Right now using large rigs a carrier pilot could do the same. If I wanted to T2 rig a T1 BS it's gonna cost 8-10x the hull cost.

After the capital rigs are introduced a carrier could be T2 rigged for 3-5x it's hull cost. However, a super can be T2 rigged for less than 1/3 of its hull cost. For a Titan the percentage is even smaller, like 1/6 hull cost. They will be the only two ship classes in the game that can be T2 rigged for a small fraction of the cost of the hull. Yes, it's less absurd than the current cost of large T2 rigs vs Titan/super hull cost, but the cost is still broken relative to other ships in the game. This seems like a rush job an not well thought out. Two classes of capital rigs should have been introduced and the T2 salvage drops needed to be buffed to help accommodate the absurd increase in materials requirements.


Supers and titan costs also make officer mods look like cheap t2 gear. They are somewhat special cases.

Carriers and dreads are the main block of capitals and it makes perfect sense for these.
J A Aloysiusz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2013-06-02 01:30:02 UTC
Make it so cargo rigs and mods affect corp hangar as well. Jump freighters are too damn expensive.
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2013-06-02 12:03:11 UTC
I haven't read all 18 pages, but has anyone put forward the additional problem that the blue salvage required for T2 rigs is going to be a lot more expensive as well?

For example, mag sites in Period Basis currently dole out lots of Cap Consoles. The new Relic Site system means the supply of them will shorten quite dramatically. I've run a dozen or so Relic sites on SISI, in PB, with an alt, and they are fricking crap. Haven't found a single one :s

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#360 - 2013-06-02 12:41:17 UTC
The cap T2 rigs will be WAY too expensive.
it shouldnt cost 3+ times the hull cost to rig a carrier/dread.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout