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[Odyssey] Capital Rigs

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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#281 - 2013-04-29 23:08:31 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Seriously fix the title.

thank you for fixing the title.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#282 - 2013-04-30 06:09:33 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
It was about time, yay Big smile I also hope CCP will in future do some rebalancing around rigs-there are few ones used very often and the rest is just useless, it should be fixed. Also I would like to see some new system with salvage-like using ton of t1 salvage to make t2, maybe even different ones. Something like salvage reactions Lol

I agree.

Salvage are junk "salvaged" from destroyed ships. There is no reason you can not use parts from 20 different damaged components to make one good functional component. I have done it many times working in industrial maintenance. When you need to fix something, but the new replacement parts are not available, or on back order. I often salvage parts from other old broken units to assemble one working unit. When components break they rarely break in exactly the same way.

For example I recently fixed a gear box, gear 1 and 3 were broken in one box and gear 2 and 6 were broken in another old gearbox of the same model. I pulled gears 1 and 3 from the one to fix the other and ended up with one good gear box and one with 4 bad gears.

Or say you have two similar computers. the hard drive frys in one and the ram frys in the other. You pull the ram out of the one with the fryed hard drive and put it in the other. you now have 1 working computer rather than two broken ones.

Using 10 or 20 t1 salvage to make a single T2 salvage sounds very reasonable to me.


I would say that CCP does have something like thisin the pipe somewhere to roll out if they see the need to put such a system in place. After all it was a while before they added alchemy and then reworked it again to counteract problems in Moon mining.
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#283 - 2013-04-30 13:40:46 UTC
^thats what all the "metal scraps" are used for....duh...every ship drops them now...

http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing    < Unified Inventory is NOT ready...
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#284 - 2013-05-02 13:06:15 UTC
Making capitals more expensive , pretty counter productive to fighting inflation in the game.
Celestial One
Militant Miners
#285 - 2013-05-02 22:13:10 UTC
Josef North wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Schmell wrote:
So what numbes will they have?

How will, for example, t1 capital trimark and t2 large trimark compare in efficiency?

(considering t1 capital trimark will be around 5-10 times cheaper)

They will probably be exactly the same thing as larges.


Also tallest cant spell.


Shouldn't that be "Also, Tallest can't spell."


The last sentence should have a question mark at the end. ShockedBig smile


If Tallest is going to drop grammar on someone I think they should respond to this reply.

Kudos for noticing this.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#286 - 2013-05-03 18:36:06 UTC
The big issue I have overall with the Rig system is that many of Tech 2 Large Armor Rigs are RARELY EVER used on

Battleships, even on Faction and T2 Battleships.

The only users of T2 Large Trimarks for example are only used on Super Carriers due to the ridiculous cost.

Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#287 - 2013-05-07 10:28:17 UTC
about time... thank you

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Babyface Eighteen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#288 - 2013-05-09 11:15:23 UTC
There's already a Capital CCC rig ingame on contracts. Whats up with that?
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#289 - 2013-05-10 20:07:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sharon Tate
So, went and looked at the rig blueprints on Singularity.

Here's what we're looking at for T2 capital trimarks (excuse formatting):
Quote:

Perfect Waste Total
Intact Armor Plates 72 14 86
Interface Circuit 83 17 100
Nanite Compound 55 11 66
R.A.M.- Armor/Hull Tech 1 0 1


Assumes Formation Layout to get ME to -1.

That's 4.5b for the set of 3, at build cost.

Assuming there's no changes to salvage drop rates, these babies aren't going on anything but titans post patch.

I'd love to see some follow up comments by Tallest/Devs here on this. Basically, as it stands now, you've potentially got rigs that cost ~three plus times the value of the ship (in the case of carriers/dreads).
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#290 - 2013-05-10 21:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Sharon Tate wrote:
So, went and looked at the rig blueprints on Singularity.

Here's what we're looking at for T2 capital trimarks (excuse formatting):
Quote:

Perfect Waste Total
Intact Armor Plates 72 14 86
Interface Circuit 83 17 100
Nanite Compound 55 11 66
R.A.M.- Armor/Hull Tech 1 0 1


Assumes Formation Layout to get ME to -1.

That's 4.5b for the set of 3, at build cost.

Assuming there's no changes to salvage drop rates, these babies aren't going on anything but titans post patch.

I'd love to see some follow up comments by Tallest/Devs here on this. Basically, as it stands now, you've potentially got rigs that cost ~three plus times the value of the ship (in the case of carriers/dreads).


So are we going to end up with i.e. T2 CCC rigs that for the most part no one with any sense will fit on a super or titan but are now completely out of the sensible reach of people fitting out moderately pimp carriers and dreads for wormhole and some lowsec use?

Getting the feeling CCP needs to go back to the drawing board on this one and think it through a bit more - the more information coming out the more it seems to me they've only considered this in the scope of null sec and forgotten about the rest of eve. Unless I'm seeing things wrong it looks like a lot of capital T2 rigs that would have application to other parts of eve and would never be used on super/titans will be priced outside the sensible range for those kind of uses making them a complete waste of time.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#291 - 2013-05-11 02:11:00 UTC
T2 Large Trimarks are typically only seem on Super Capitals, not even regular capitals or pimp battleships ever use em.

Now T2 Large Trimarks will barely ever be used.

The cost disparity with rigs are a problem as well.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#292 - 2013-05-11 03:52:22 UTC
Another fine example of making changes "because we can" without thinking them through all the way.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#293 - 2013-05-11 16:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Sharon Tate wrote:
I'd love to see some follow up comments by Tallest/Devs here on this. Basically, as it stands now, you've potentially got rigs that cost ~three plus times the value of the ship (in the case of carriers/dreads).


Why is this a problem? T2 small rigs can cost 50 times the value of a T1 frigate.

If you can't afford them, don't fit them. The only problem here is grandfathering in the old large rigs for existing capital hulls rather than stripping them to hangar like they should.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#294 - 2013-05-11 17:07:36 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Sharon Tate wrote:
I'd love to see some follow up comments by Tallest/Devs here on this. Basically, as it stands now, you've potentially got rigs that cost ~three plus times the value of the ship (in the case of carriers/dreads).


Why is this a problem? T2 small rigs can cost 50 times the value of a T1 frigate.

If you can't afford them, don't fit them. The only problem here is grandfathering in the old large rigs for existing capital hulls rather than stripping them to hangar like they should.


T1 frig isn't an end game ship for anyone (I hope) and not something like a capital or faction BS so IMO doesn't really apply the same way, then you have faction frigs, etc. that are closer to the price of T2 small rigs, still a bit out of whack but somewhat more viable cost wise.

TBH the whole thing is skewed a bit really, theres way too many different tiers of ships sharing the same rig types for any one ratio metric to properly apply.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#295 - 2013-05-11 19:13:00 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Sharon Tate wrote:
I'd love to see some follow up comments by Tallest/Devs here on this. Basically, as it stands now, you've potentially got rigs that cost ~three plus times the value of the ship (in the case of carriers/dreads).


Why is this a problem? T2 small rigs can cost 50 times the value of a T1 frigate.

If you can't afford them, don't fit them. The only problem here is grandfathering in the old large rigs for existing capital hulls rather than stripping them to hangar like they should.


T1 frig isn't an end game ship for anyone (I hope) and not something like a capital or faction BS so IMO doesn't really apply the same way, then you have faction frigs, etc. that are closer to the price of T2 small rigs, still a bit out of whack but somewhat more viable cost wise.

TBH the whole thing is skewed a bit really, theres way too many different tiers of ships sharing the same rig types for any one ratio metric to properly apply.

Eve has no "end-game" and thus there can be no 'end game ship' .. one flies whichever hull/fit gets the job done.

Capitals, especially carriers, are very much open for comparisons with T1 frigates as they are highly spammable. Can be (and are) built in any station, NPC or Player owned/made and requires no exotic materials .. comparison may falter when it is fitting cost: where each and every (almost) module the T1 frigate is likely to fit costs more than the hull itself, the capitals will more often than not exceed the cost of the naked hull in total fitting expense .. capital rigs solve that.

If you want to engage in a fight where you know a T2 rig, rather than a T1 ditto will determine the outcome then you have to make the same choice as everyone else in Eve: Do I roll the dice and take the 60/40 or splurge now and take the sure thing?
That applies to everything from faction hulls and named mods through officer mods and T2 rigs .. you fly whichever hull/fit gets the job done. The rich have always had an advantage due to this, but that is also their achilles heel as they tend to rely blindly on the advantage offered by their bling thus generating the epic lol-mails when they meet that one fit they did/could not account for.

I'll leave you with the important bit of the post you quoted:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
...If you can't afford them, don't fit them. The only problem here is grandfathering in the old large rigs for existing capital hulls rather than stripping them to hangar like they should.

And add that: if you can't afford them but need them then you either need to shake things up some or find some way to scrounge up the cash .. I am sure there is a friendly loan-shark who can spot you in a crunch Smile
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#296 - 2013-05-11 21:41:00 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Eve has no "end-game" and thus there can be no 'end game ship' .. one flies whichever hull/fit gets the job done.

Capitals, especially carriers, are very much open for comparisons with T1 frigates as they are highly spammable. Can be (and are) built in any station, NPC or Player owned/made and requires no exotic materials .. comparison may falter when it is fitting cost: where each and every (almost) module the T1 frigate is likely to fit costs more than the hull itself, the capitals will more often than not exceed the cost of the naked hull in total fitting expense .. capital rigs solve that.

If you want to engage in a fight where you know a T2 rig, rather than a T1 ditto will determine the outcome then you have to make the same choice as everyone else in Eve: Do I roll the dice and take the 60/40 or splurge now and take the sure thing?
That applies to everything from faction hulls and named mods through officer mods and T2 rigs .. you fly whichever hull/fit gets the job done. The rich have always had an advantage due to this, but that is also their achilles heel as they tend to rely blindly on the advantage offered by their bling thus generating the epic lol-mails when they meet that one fit they did/could not account for.

I'll leave you with the important bit of the post you quoted:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
...If you can't afford them, don't fit them. The only problem here is grandfathering in the old large rigs for existing capital hulls rather than stripping them to hangar like they should.

And add that: if you can't afford them but need them then you either need to shake things up some or find some way to scrounge up the cash .. I am sure there is a friendly loan-shark who can spot you in a crunch Smile


I wrote up a massively long post in response to this but its too complicated a subject really - not everyone sees ships purely as a means to an end or uses them that way. Your response is focused to a fairly specific part of the game thats different to where I'm coming from. The basic gist of my post was tho that a carrier or dread is something that takes months of skilling up for and investing in and for many people as far as they will progress shipwise in the game whereas a t1 frig isn't.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#297 - 2013-05-11 22:23:06 UTC
Rroff wrote:
I wrote up a massively long post in response to this but its too complicated a subject really - not everyone sees ships purely as a means to an end or uses them that way. Your response is focused to a fairly specific part of the game thats different to where I'm coming from. The basic gist of my post was tho that a carrier or dread is something that takes months of skilling up for and investing in and for many people as far as they will progress shipwise in the game whereas a t1 frig isn't.

You are right, my outview is probably tainted by being able to fly/fit everything except for Titans .. but if you skill straight to Carrier/Dread because you think it the (pen)ultimate ship then you are quite frankly missing out on 99% of the fun available.

It is something CCP ought to stress to newcomers, that exploring/experiencing Eve is more than getting to where one can grind lvl4's or sit in a blob shooting EHP bricks ... imagine if piracy got its own expansion and introduced people to the joy of shooting each other in the face on the same scale as Worms and Incursions?
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#298 - 2013-05-11 23:59:59 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Sharon Tate wrote:
I'd love to see some follow up comments by Tallest/Devs here on this. Basically, as it stands now, you've potentially got rigs that cost ~three plus times the value of the ship (in the case of carriers/dreads).


Why is this a problem? T2 small rigs can cost 50 times the value of a T1 frigate.

If you can't afford them, don't fit them. The only problem here is grandfathering in the old large rigs for existing capital hulls rather than stripping them to hangar like they should.

It's a fair point. And I can afford them. However, it's a cost/benefit issue. I'd never toss T2 rigs on a frigate outside of the alliance tourney, because they can die too easily. You simply don't get enough benefit from them even îf you can afford a fleet of them. Ditto for larger ships, which is why you rarely see large T2 trimarks on fleet PVP ships.

The problem with stripping large rigs off caps and making folks refit cap rigs is inconsistency. CCP didn't do this when smaller rigs were introduced (I still have a salvaging caracal floating around somewhere with large salvage tackle on it). The benefit there, however, was you had a cost/benefit reason to fit rigs on smaller ships. In this case, you have actually less of a reason to fit the new rigs on the ships they are intended for.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with capital rigs in general. The T1 variants costs are more in line with the ship sizes. The issue is the T2 variants, which I'll also argue are broken from a source materials standpoint across the board, from small to XL. While it makes sense some salvage is worth more than others, it's silly that its so skewed. The solution is to adjust the drop rates to bring some of the rarer salvage more into line with their T1 counterparts.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2013-05-12 00:16:29 UTC
To everyone who keeps complaining about how much this is going to make T2 capital rigs cost.

You don't understand supply and demand!!!

As the prices for the rigs go up the demand will decrease and the cost will drop until supply meets demand.

Because capitals used large rigs but cost 10x->70x the cost of a battleship to build they were effectively getting their rigs for 1/10th to 1/70th of the cost. Of course everyone put in T2 rigs under these circumstances.

This change is great for everyone in eve that doesn't fly capital ships because T2 rigs will start to fall into the "reasonable" price range for non-capital ships.


-FM
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#300 - 2013-05-12 00:52:45 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
To everyone who keeps complaining about how much this is going to make T2 capital rigs cost.

You don't understand supply and demand!!!

As the prices for the rigs go up the demand will decrease and the cost will drop until supply meets demand.

Because capitals used large rigs but cost 10x->70x the cost of a battleship to build they were effectively getting their rigs for 1/10th to 1/70th of the cost. Of course everyone put in T2 rigs under these circumstances.

This change is great for everyone in eve that doesn't fly capital ships because T2 rigs will start to fall into the "reasonable" price range for non-capital ships.


-FM


I hope your right, tho my arguement isn't so much about the cost as such but a more complicated dynamic especially in relation to wormhole space capital use where T2 rigs on carriers and dreads is very common place.