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Summer expansion SP

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-04-23 16:12:08 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Personally I'd rather see the whole SP and training system scrubbed or at least totally overhauled.


So basically you want to scrap one of the most unique aspect and biggest draw of the game, and turn the skill system into a Wow clone?
Virginia Virdana
RSM Inc
#42 - 2013-04-23 16:12:32 UTC
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Virginia Virdana wrote:
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
But y I am punished for that? Y I have to spend 4x times more than they? Because I am younger? Newer players already heavily disadvantaged


The only thing you are being "punished" for is your lack of forward planning


Im two months old. How was I supposed to plan it on time?


You basically want the free skill points to allocate on your char, because other players are being given the supporting skills that enable them to fly what they can already fly.

I can't see how you thought that might happen. 
They say never come to a gunfight armed with a knife.   You appear to have come armed with a spoon.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2013-04-23 16:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Exactly. That's what I'm pointing at. This change itself hits those who have Dessy V and BC V quite a bit but even harder those who don't.
No, it's pretty much the exact opposite of what you're pointing at.

This change hits those who have Destroyer and BC V very hard — it doesn't hit anyone else at all. The difference before and after the patch is that everyone will be able to do exactly the same things they could the day before, except that those who suddenly get burdened with 5M SP more and risk running up higher clone costs aren't getting anything for it.

Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I am a firm believer that current skill system in EVE is the second-largest singular detrimental factor to the game's player base growth. Largest factor being the current player base.
Funnily enough, the player base has this tendency to gobble up community prize after community prize, and the skill system is commonly cited as one of the great ideas that make this game vastly superior to the grind-o-ramas every other MMO burdens their players with…

Quote:
But what about new players? You know, those "the few, the proud, the nooby"? What about them?
What about them? They're getting more stuff much cheaper than before, and whatever increased training time that comes from wanting to cross-train into every race is more than cancelled out by the decreased training time that comes from more direct specialisation paths.
Dave Stark
#44 - 2013-04-23 16:14:15 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Personally I'd rather see the whole SP and training system scrubbed or at least totally overhauled.


So basically you want to scrap one of the most unique aspect and biggest draw of the game, and turn the skill system into a Wow clone?


this.
i like the sense of progression without mindless grind.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-04-23 16:15:47 UTC
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Exactly. That's what I'm pointing at. This change itself hits those who have Dessy V and BC V quite a bit but even harder those who don't.


I think most people would agree that making cross training more difficult is a good change. And the previous system wasn't very logical which is why CCP is trying to streamline it. What your basically asking for is for CCP to scrap the proposal so snowflakes like yourself don't get hurt.

If they give everyone free SP then like I said before, there is not point in them making the change in the first place as pirate faction frigs will be just as easy to get into as everyone will have free SP.
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#46 - 2013-04-23 16:16:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Exactly. That's what I'm pointing at. This change itself hits those who have Dessy V and BC V quite a bit but even harder those who don't.
No, it's pretty much the exact opposite of what you're pointing at.

This change hits those who have Destroyer and BC V very hard — it doesn't hit anyone else at all. The difference before and after the patch is that everyone will be able to do exactly the same things they could the day before, except that those who suddenly get burdened with 5M SP more and risk running up higher clone costs aren't getting anything for it.


This, I don't think OP even understands the skill changes at all.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-04-23 16:18:42 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:


Personally I'd rather see the whole SP and training system scrubbed or at least totally overhauled. Then again, I'm a realist, and I know it will never happen as it is pretty much the only thing still holding this game together. Well, that and bird droppings.


Given how many times both character generation and skillpoint training have been changed over the years, I would not get any hopes up.

And the game should not have to constantly bend over backwards to make "catching up" (for any reason) easy for new players. If new players have been off playing other games for years, or have been stuck on console gaming since their mom decided an XBOX was cheaper than a babysitter, then they should just HTFU and earn their place in EVE.

Onoes... actually having to make an effort. Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2013-04-23 16:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Exactly. That's what I'm pointing at. This change itself hits those who have Dessy V and BC V quite a bit but even harder those who don't.


I think most people would agree that making cross training more difficult is a good change. And the previous system wasn't very logical which is why CCP is trying to streamline it. What your basically asking for is for CCP to scrap the proposal so snowflakes like yourself don't get hurt.

If they give everyone free SP then like I said before, there is not point in them making the change in the first place as pirate faction frigs will be just as easy to get into as everyone will have free SP.



It's not free SP. The time was already spent on training it. Even as an Amarr and seeing how easy it is to fly a drake, I'd rather racial characters have a modifier for cross training to make it more detrimental.

As it is, this makes things quite a bit easier for those that feel they trained those skills in "error" and can re allocate those SP into an entirely separate field (drones, pi, social, etc).

For a new pilot, you only get the benefit of having lower training times for 90% of the affected skill requirements and did not waste any time to be compensated for.

It's folly to think otherwise.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-04-23 16:21:55 UTC
Braxus Deninard wrote:
This, I don't think OP even understands the skill changes at all.


The OP doesn't understand much at all. They don't realise how easy they have it compared to older players these days. A lot of skills which older players spent months training for became irrelevant in previous iterations

I remember training all the learning skills to level V back in the day. Now you don't have to do that. I trained the social connections skills to level V which were then removed, and now you don't have to do that. I spent months training Mining Barge to level V to fly and Orca. And now you can have it in 14 days.
Royal Executioner Shazih
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-04-23 16:22:34 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:


Personally I'd rather see the whole SP and training system scrubbed or at least totally overhauled. Then again, I'm a realist, and I know it will never happen as it is pretty much the only thing still holding this game together. Well, that and bird droppings.


Given how many times both character generation and skillpoint training have been changed over the years, I would not get any hopes up.

And the game should not have to constantly bend over backwards to make "catching up" (for any reason) easy for new players. If new players have been off playing other games for years, or have been stuck on console gaming since their mom decided an XBOX was cheaper than a babysitter, then they should just HTFU and earn their place in EVE.

Onoes... actually having to make an effort. Roll


Off topic but still. Do u understand that if we (noobs) leave this game there will be noone to sell your crap to and noone shoot in low sec at?

Noobs/newer players deserve some love too.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-04-23 16:22:58 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
It's not free SP. The time was already spent on training it.


The OP was suggesting that CCP gives him free SP though.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-04-23 16:24:43 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
It's not free SP. The time was already spent on training it.


The OP was suggesting that CCP gives him free SP though.



Yea that's what I'm trying to correct. It's not free when pilots already spent the time on them. Silly bad posting on the OP part. To think it should be just a blanket "everyone gets millions of sp" is.. well... not needed here =).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-04-23 16:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Noobs/newer players deserve some love too.


Read my post above. New players are getting plenty of love. CCP are constantly producing lots of nice new shiny things for new players to play with. Hell, the main purpose of tiericide was to buff up the lower T1 ships so that new players could better compete with the advanced ships which older players spent months or years training for.
Mrs Troutslayer
Internet Spaceship Gamers
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
#54 - 2013-04-23 16:25:57 UTC
OP, the way this is being implemented "If you can fly it now, you can fly t after the change" no better no worse I might add.

Under your proposed change players who planned ahead get nothing more than an inflated skillpoint number (and more expensive clones to replace). You would get to fly new stuff or your current stuff better with your new fee skill points.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-04-23 16:26:00 UTC
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:


Off topic but still. Do u understand that if we (noobs) leave this game there will be noone to sell your crap to and noone shoot in low sec at?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. ahem...

Oh. Oh you were serious....Shocked

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2013-04-23 16:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Do u understand that if we (noobs) leave this game there will be noone to sell your crap to and noone shoot in low sec at?
Of course there will — namely everyone else.

Now, you do understand that “catching up” is not an applicable concept in EVE, right? That the only thing that new players can't “catch up” with is total SP? That total SP is a meaningless stat that only serves one purpose: making your clone more expensive? That beyond total SP, “catching up” is not only very possible, but actually inevitable, and also a hugely inefficient way of spending your time? That the design of marginal improvement for exponential increases in cost, and of diminishing returns means that 1 SP ≠ 1 SP?

You're asking to be compensated for the non-loss of not being subject to an actual compensation (one that only results in them being exactly where they were before). You are getting the exact same deal.

Quote:
Noobs/newer players deserve some love too.
They're getting a lot of it: they get a much improved ship progression tree, where almost everything is much easier and quicker to train for.
Royal Executioner Shazih
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-04-23 16:35:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Do u understand that if we (noobs) leave this game there will be noone to sell your crap to and noone shoot in low sec at?
Of course there will — namely everyone else.

Now, you do understand that “catching up” is not an applicable concept in EVE, right? That the only thing that new players can't “catch up” with is total SP? That total SP is a meaningless stat that only serves one purpose: making your clone more expensive? That beyond total SP, “catching up” is not only very possible, but actually inevitable, and also a hugely inefficient way of spending your time? That the design of marginal improvement for exponential increases in cost, and of diminishing returns means that 1 SP ≠ 1 SP?

You're asking to be compensated for the non-loss of not being subject to an actual compensation (one that only results in them being exactly where they were before). You are getting the exact same deal.

Quote:
Noobs/newer players deserve some love too.
They're getting a lot of it: they get a much improved ship progression tree, where almost everything is much easier and quicker to train for.


You are right. But I'm punished in that way:

Let's see you have all cruisers at III and BC IV. Nothing changes for u. But I have 1 racial cruiser III and BC IV. So basically my BC 1 SP is gonna lose 75% of its weight. Is it fair?
Dave Stark
#58 - 2013-04-23 16:36:17 UTC
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
Do u understand that if we (noobs) leave this game there will be noone to sell your crap to and noone shoot in low sec at?
Of course there will — namely everyone else.

Now, you do understand that “catching up” is not an applicable concept in EVE, right? That the only thing that new players can't “catch up” with is total SP? That total SP is a meaningless stat that only serves one purpose: making your clone more expensive? That beyond total SP, “catching up” is not only very possible, but actually inevitable, and also a hugely inefficient way of spending your time? That the design of marginal improvement for exponential increases in cost, and of diminishing returns means that 1 SP ≠ 1 SP?

You're asking to be compensated for the non-loss of not being subject to an actual compensation (one that only results in them being exactly where they were before). You are getting the exact same deal.

Quote:
Noobs/newer players deserve some love too.
They're getting a lot of it: they get a much improved ship progression tree, where almost everything is much easier and quicker to train for.


You are right. But I'm punished in that way:

Let's see you have all cruisers at III and BC IV. Nothing changes for u. But I have 1 racial cruiser III and BC IV. So basically my BC 1 SP is gonna lose 75% of its weight. Is it fair?


remind me again what ships you're going to be unable to fly after the change?


i thought so.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-04-23 16:36:29 UTC
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:


You are right. But I'm punished in that way:

Let's see you have all cruisers at III and BC IV. Nothing changes for u. But I have 1 racial cruiser III and BC IV. So basically my BC 1 SP is gonna lose 75% of its weight. Is it fair?


No, it's not. You will be able to fly exactly the same battlecruisers with exactly the same effect you can fly right now. How are you being punished by that logic?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#60 - 2013-04-23 16:37:42 UTC
Has NO already been said?



If it hasnt, NO.
If it has, then +1 NO.
Also **** NO.

On second thought, NO.

Failure to listen for the past year and wanting benefit for being lazy should result in 6mil SP being docked from your existing skills... and being docked a remap...because we all know thatll be the next thing theyll all want.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?