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Any hopes for Torpedoes in Odyssey?
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Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-23 09:46:46 UTC
Torpedoes at this point in time are a mixed bag of doody with bits of skittles and a small niche amongst stealth bombers because that's what they do. I should not have to fit two target painters and/or web to hit a battleship going faster than 160~m/s (which is pretty much all the minmatar battleships) for full damage with rage torpedos, whose sole purpose is to hit hard against big targets, and it can't even do that right because the explosive radius is god awful and you have to get within blaster range for it to even hit. Now the cruise missile buff gave me hope, a small glimmer of hope, that maybe, just maybe, CCP would change torpedoes so that they're viable for PVP outside of ganking mission fit ships and on stealth bombers.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-04-23 10:47:43 UTC
I all pro looking at torps, though I don't think it's possible without looking at the Stealth Bombers and even the Golem at the same time.

In a strabge way thay got Torps working for Stealth Bombers by giving them insane bonuses, I you buff trops without Looking at the stealth bombers space turns dark with cloaked Stealth Bombers
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-04-23 11:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Fonac
I had hoped for torpedo changes, right after they posted cruise missilies. .. but i'm getting suspecious, since we haven't heard anything since then.

I honestly think the devs, deem torpedo as balanced. I hope i'm wrong, but i dont think that is the case unfortunaly.


Edit; Oh and i agree with the TP change. I did try a golem after the change they did to explosion radius, but i still found them way inferior to any turrent system regardless.

Torpedo's are simply underpowered, with to little damage application, and to short of a range.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#4 - 2013-04-23 11:24:28 UTC
The Stealth Bomber argument doesn't seem to be too massive a hurdle to help Torps damage application, just buff torps range/exp radius/exp velocity and tune down the Stealth Bomber bonuses.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-04-23 11:41:26 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
The Stealth Bomber argument doesn't seem to be too massive a hurdle to help Torps damage application, just buff torps range/exp radius/exp velocity and tune down the Stealth Bomber bonuses.



that actualy depends on the changes to Torpedo's and these idea's arround Missiles damage application mods CCP Rise was talking about.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-23 11:48:45 UTC
IMO the simple quick-fix for Torps is to give them a 50% flight velocity bonus. The only major issue with this is that it gives Stealth Bombers more range. However, this is limited by their maximum lock range, and if it's a problem despite that removing the flight time bonus would do the trick (or making the velocity bonus 5-10%/level).
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#7 - 2013-04-23 12:32:40 UTC
Why is everyone talking about range?
Torpedos are the short ranged BS missile system and even so 40km (IIRC) is not unacheivable in a PvP fit Raven. Torp range is not an issue.
I would also suggest that hitting Minmatar BS (which are generally both the smallest and fastest) with Rage Torps is not intended to yield full damage...
I haven't spent any appreciable time in my Torp boats since the modification to GMP so I can't say for certain how much effect that's had but I might be persuaded that the damage application of Torps still needs work, though probably not by direct modification of the missile's stats but rather through modules which would have that effect.
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-04-23 19:34:45 UTC
Let me put it another way then; I can't hit another Raven going 117m/s for full damage with rage torpedoes.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#9 - 2013-04-23 20:23:25 UTC
I think the advantage of missiles is that they can provide consistent damage. You never "miss" with them as you would with turrets. The downside is perhaps less over all applied damage. If you give missiles the same damage capabilities of turrets while keeping the consistence that missile weapon systems have, you'll make missiles (in this case torps) broken and over powered.


But hey if you want to buff my little SB base corp via torps by all means. Cool
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-04-23 21:19:30 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I think the advantage of missiles is that they can provide consistent damage. You never "miss" with them as you would with turrets. The downside is perhaps less over all applied damage. If you give missiles the same damage capabilities of turrets while keeping the consistence that missile weapon systems have, you'll make missiles (in this case torps) broken and over powered.


But hey if you want to buff my little SB base corp via torps by all means. Cool


Consistant damage is countered by wrecking hits.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#11 - 2013-04-23 22:31:24 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Why is everyone talking about range?
Torpedos are the short ranged BS missile system and even so 40km (IIRC) is not unacheivable in a PvP fit Raven. Torp range is not an issue.
I would also suggest that hitting Minmatar BS (which are generally both the smallest and fastest) with Rage Torps is not intended to yield full damage...
I haven't spent any appreciable time in my Torp boats since the modification to GMP so I can't say for certain how much effect that's had but I might be persuaded that the damage application of Torps still needs work, though probably not by direct modification of the missile's stats but rather through modules which would have that effect.


Thats with the hefty range bonus that the Raven gets, Mega Pulse gets 45km optimal with Scorch with no bonuses, and 800mm Arties with barrage get better range as well. They also have decent enough application that you don't have to be shooting a moon to do damage.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#12 - 2013-04-23 23:32:43 UTC
I haven't used missiles for a while but it's in my estimation that torpedoes would gain the most benefit from a decreased explosion radius. In addition to this you make the missile caldari ships gain explosion speed bonuses as well as their typical damage bonus. In this way ships like the raven and golem are distinct from other racial torpedo ships by having much better damage application even if minmatar get a rate of fire bonus or some other racial bonus. Minmatar already get target painter bonuses to compensate as well as generous low slots for armour tanking. If we hold that caldari are missile specialists and must have shield tanked ships the we should be open minded about providing them an actual reason to be flown that way.
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-04-24 03:00:49 UTC
Any number of things including but not limited to; higher explosive velocity, smaller explosive radius, more torpedo velocity, and other things that are ship specific would help wash the poo off torpedoes.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#14 - 2013-04-24 03:37:52 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I haven't used missiles for a while but it's in my estimation that torpedoes would gain the most benefit from a decreased explosion radius. In addition to this you make the missile caldari ships gain explosion speed bonuses as well as their typical damage bonus. In this way ships like the raven and golem are distinct from other racial torpedo ships by having much better damage application even if minmatar get a rate of fire bonus or some other racial bonus. Minmatar already get target painter bonuses to compensate as well as generous low slots for armour tanking. If we hold that caldari are missile specialists and must have shield tanked ships the we should be open minded about providing them an actual reason to be flown that way.

Lowering the explosion radius would help torps a lot. Missile damage formula, yadda yadda.

But it's not the explosion radius that bugs me. We're still in the age of shield extenders making lots of people flying around with huge sig radiuses, and torp boats don't usually have great problems applying painters. In my favorite torp scenario, the one of a torp Raven hammering a Drake - the Drake naturally having 3 shield rigs and at least one LSE, the torps aren't losing damage due to signature radius alone. But you could be losing damage due to the Drake's unmodified speed. Or an Abaddon's unmodified speed. And when unfit Abaddons are speedtanking something, it might be going a bit too slow...
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-04-24 05:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Jacob Holland wrote:
Why is everyone talking about range?
Torpedos are the short ranged BS missile system and even so 40km (IIRC) is not unacheivable in a PvP fit Raven. Torp range is not an issue.
I would also suggest that hitting Minmatar BS (which are generally both the smallest and fastest) with Rage Torps is not intended to yield full damage...
I haven't spent any appreciable time in my Torp boats since the modification to GMP so I can't say for certain how much effect that's had but I might be persuaded that the damage application of Torps still needs work, though probably not by direct modification of the missile's stats but rather through modules which would have that effect.
Because a maximum range for a heavy weapon system of 20km (assuming no ship bonuses to range) is horrible, especially when the damage takes nine seconds to land. The realistic range is somewhat less because of target movement, especially as the torps only move at 2.25 km/s. That's why I suggest flight velocity getting a hefty boost as the 'quick-fix' - it extends the engagement range to something a little more reasonable, reduces the damage application delay at shorter ranges, and makes it a little less likely that they'll simply run out of range when attacking fast targets in the 10-20km range band.

You shouldn't have to have a ship bonused for flight time and/or velocity to make a short-ranged weapon system functional.

EDIT: Remember that at this time missile systems have no modules that enhance their range, unlike turret weapons. Until that's changed (if it ever is), the base range of torps could really use a bit of a buff.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#16 - 2013-04-24 07:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacob Holland
Dato Koppla wrote:
Thats with the hefty range bonus that the Raven gets, Mega Pulse gets 45km optimal with Scorch with no bonuses, and 800mm Arties with barrage get better range as well. They also have decent enough application that you don't have to be shooting a moon to do damage.

And, as you're using T2 long ranged ammo in both examples the Raven can look at closer to 55km with Javs... And a significant boost to damage application stats goes with that.

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Because a maximum range for a heavy weapon system of 20km (assuming no ship bonuses to range) is horrible,

So Blasters (17km on Neutrons with AM) are severely underpowered? The option does exist to extend that to almost 30km using Iron ammunition of course... for a 50% reduction in damage.

Torps are a short ranged weapon system, they suffer the same limitations as other short ranged weapon systems and are adequately compensated (IMHO) with raw damage.

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
EDIT: Remember that at this time missile systems have no modules that enhance their range, unlike turret weapons.

Yes, I'm aware of this. As I say, I might be convinced that damage application boosts are required, but in the form of modules rather than base stats.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-04-24 07:38:43 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:

So Blasters (17km on Neutrons with AM) are severely underpowered? The option does exist to extend that to almost 30km using Iron ammunition of course... for a 50% reduction in damage.

Torps are a short ranged weapon system, they suffer the same limitations as other short ranged weapon systems and are adequately compensated (IMHO) with raw damage.


Blasters get better damage application stats than rails. Torps get worse than cruise. As well as about 1/3 - 1/5 of the range. With the cruise buff coming I think they have to do something with torps although I concede quite what eludes me for now.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-04-24 08:02:17 UTC
My typhoon would like to have a word with you ;)

... and thats before the new changes... because damn!!... damn i tell you!!!

No Worries
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-04-24 10:21:07 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
The Stealth Bomber argument doesn't seem to be too massive a hurdle to help Torps damage application, just buff torps range/exp radius/exp velocity and tune down the Stealth Bomber bonuses.



that actualy depends on the changes to Torpedo's and these idea's arround Missiles damage application mods CCP Rise was talking about.



aaa so they are thinking on a module to make target painters even less relevant? Great! instead of fixing that damm ewar they 321#*!@#*!@# afff

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-04-24 11:33:46 UTC
Steve Spooner wrote:
Let me put it another way then; I can't hit another Raven going 117m/s for full damage with rage torpedoes.


You're crazy if you think you should get full damage against an untackled attack BS using Rage torps.
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